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I know this topic has come up before, but I was just wondering why do women who become Pastors or Elders of church think that they are Scripturally following the bible?
After I carefully studied this topic, my conclusion on this issue is that the Bible does not PERMIT women to function in the role of pastor or elder within the church. Also, this has been the same position of a vast majority of churches around the world and throughout history. Now, have these churches been discriminatory by denying women to be church pastors or elders? Let's look at what Scripture says about this topic.
1Timothy 2:11-14 addresses this question most directly. 1Timothy 2:11-14: Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the wman was deceived and became a transgressor.
Here we see Paul speaking about the church. It seems that Paul is addressing what type of church order should be carried out; and these functions are unique to pastors or elders that Paul prohibits for women in the church.
1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9 assume that elders are going to be men. An elder (or bishop/overseer) must be the husband of one wife ( 1Tim.3:2; also Titus 1:6), and must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way (1Tim. 3:4)
Some women who object to Paul authorizing church elders or pastors for men only are ABSOLUTELY going against the Word of God.
Someone gave me a rep for starting this thread, and commented that I was being legalistic by noting that it is unscriptural for women to be pastors or elders. This person also sited Romans 2:1-11 to let me know that I shouldn't be judging any woman for becoming a pastor or elder.
In this thread, I did not judge women for wanting to be or for becoming a pastor or elder. My main intent was to use the Bible to show how it is NOT Scriptural for women to become pastors or elders of any christian organization. With that said, read very carefully what Paul also said to Timothy:
For the time will come when THEY [some women who think it's ok to be a pastor or elder] will not endure sound doctrine but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, will heap up for themselves TEACHERS; and they will turn their ears away from the TRUTH, and be turned aside to fables. 2Tim4:3-4 Emphasis added.
Why did Paul warn Timothy about this?
If I was being legalistic, then I guess Paul didn't know what he was talking about when he said:
All Scripture is givien by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness 2Timothy 2:16.
My intent was to show, out of chrisitan love, how Scripture doesn't support women being a church pastor or elder--hothing more nothing less.
Back about 25 years ago when I was pastoring a small mission, I too had a serious question about the place of women in the church. But after a lot of prayer, I was told something very profound (at least to me). MY approval over someone else's calling is irrelevant! I was told that if God wants to use someone that other people disapprove of, then it is simply God being God.....He's done it before, He will do it again. I was told to verify their calling by the fruits of their ministry or calling, if His hand was on it, the ministry or calling would be blessed. If it was their ego or whatever that led someone to act like they were called, then the ministry will not be blessed........either way, God is God and God is in Charge, not ME! so whether or not a woman is a pastor or an elder is totally irrelevant.......what I need to do is be certain and secure and strong in MY calling, not someone else's.
Wow! You took the words right out of my mouth Fundamentalist. It saddens me when people LITERALLY disregard God's own word to justify why it's ok not to follow it-especially when the word is VERY PLAIN AS DAY ON THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC. You can't say God has called women to be a church pastor or elder when his own word prohibits women from becoming one. God's Word is being contradicted when a person says that it's irrelavant about women becoming pastors or elder. With that said, I just hope and pray people wake up and stop having itching ears for all of this non-sense. I am no way trying to be anti-woman being a pastor or elder in a church, but I am most definetly not trying to be ANTI-SCRIPTURAL either as well.
Wow! You took the words right out of my mouth Fundamentalist. It saddens me when people LITERALLY disregard God's own word to justify why it's ok not to follow it-especially when the word is VERY PLAIN AS DAY ON THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC. You can't say God has called women to be a church pastor or elder when his own word prohibits women from becoming one. God's Word is being contradicted when a person says that it's irrelavant about women becoming pastors or elder. With that said, I just hope and pray people wake up and stop having itching ears for all of this non-sense. I am no way trying to be anti-woman being a pastor or elder in a church, but I am most definetly not trying to be ANTI-SCRIPTURAL either as well.
I could not agree with you more. Now let me ask you. Which day do you keep Sabbath on, 7th day or First day? Scripture tells us that the 7th day (from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday) is the only day that Yahweh sanctified as the Sabbath. Most Christians do not obey this commandment and keep First day (day of the sun Sunday) Sabbath. Where is the authority for the change?
I could not agree with you more. Now let me ask you. Which day do you keep Sabbath on, 7th day or First day? Scripture tells us that the 7th day (from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday) is the only day that Yahweh sanctified as the Sabbath. Most Christians do not obey this commandment and keep First day (day of the sun Sunday) Sabbath.
Do you see the Sabbath anywhere in the New Testament?
Well, since the topic regarding women has come up, I would also like to question the man's role in the church.
No where is the "office" or anything regarding a pastor in the Bible as defined by today's standards. The closest thing might be the overseer, and this was only for the job as a watchman, or an elder, who has been given the duty of overseeing the properties, and commodities in a fellowship community, or handling disputes that would occasionally arise. You know, like the honored head of a family.
But the power ALWAYS resided in the Body of Believers, with Jesus Christ as the Head. Given too much power over the lives of the church, a pastor defined by todays standards could easily lead a mass of people away from the original design.
So back to the original question.
If you feel that a woman's place could, or can, be at the head of the modern construct called a church, well then, it is no different than a man holding that same unbiblical postition.
I could not agree with you more. Now let me ask you. Which day do you keep Sabbath on, 7th day or First day? Scripture tells us that the 7th day (from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday) is the only day that Yahweh sanctified as the Sabbath. Most Christians do not obey this commandment and keep First day (day of the sun Sunday) Sabbath. Where is the authority for the change?
Good, and hold all of us Christians accountable. This is what the Word teaches on this topic, which might force me to start a new thread. In Romans 14, Paul asks the Romans, “Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God…” (Rom 14:4-6).
Paul continues, “For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” 12 So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this– not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way” (Rom 14:7-12).
As I see it, this truth was obvious to Paul. If one wants to keep a day set apart to the Lord, praise God! However, to impose the law—i.e. Sabbath regulations—upon those who have been freed from the law is both unbiblical and sinful. I hope that answers your question. God bless!
Well, since the topic regarding women has come up, I would also like to question the man's role in the church.
No where is the "office" or anything regarding a pastor in the Bible as defined by today's standards. The closest thing might be the overseer, and this was only for the job as a watchman, or an elder, who has been given the duty of overseeing the properties, and commodities in a fellowship community, or handling disputes that would occasionally arise. You know, like the honored head of a family.
But the power ALWAYS resided in the Body of Believers, with Jesus Christ as the Head. Given too much power over the lives of the church, a pastor defined by todays standards could easily lead a mass of people away from the original design.
So back to the original question.
If you feel that a woman's place could, or can, be at the head of the modern construct called a church, well then, it is no different than a man holding that same unbiblical postition.
There are many "churches" not following church structure, example, how did the deacons become higher than the pastor? How did they get the power to hire even dictate of how the church is run from the preaching to "growing" the church. I would say, from these verses pretty much gives the decription of a pastor who follows the words of Christ who is the head. Pastor should always be accountable which is why they need a group of men to keep him in check.
1 Timothy 3:1–13 (NIV) 3 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not...
Titus 1:6–9 6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to...
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 02-01-2009 at 10:17 AM..
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