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Old 07-23-2013, 03:49 PM
 
47,747 posts, read 30,152,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This is a reminder that this thread is not about whether the believer should have good works after salvation, and it is not about whether a believer without good works was ever saved in the first place.

The only topic of this thread is whether eternal salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, or whether works must be added to faith in order to be saved.

The Bible is clear and specifically states that salvation is by faith alone, and not by works.
The problem with your position is that it does NOT understand what Faith IS and how anyone can know whether or not they HAVE it. You are of the "CLAIM IT" school of theology or the "easy believer" school. Those of us who follow Christ's commands to His disciples are of the "SHOW IT" school of theology through "love of God and each other" daily and repent when we don't revealed in our "fruits."
Quote:
And while what the early church believed is not really the issue, as the issue is what the Bible says, in one of the earliest writings outside of the New Testament books themselves, Clement of Rome (died c. 99-101 AD.) wrote the following in his Letter to the Corinthians.
20. And we also, having been called by the same will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, neither by our own wisdom, or knowledge, or piety, or the works which we have done in the holiness of our hearts:
21]. But by that faith by which God Almighty has justified all men from the beginning; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. [Letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 14:20-21] First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (Part 2)
What Clement of Rome wrote agrees of course with what the Bible reveals to be true and with what I have been saying. And what I have been saying is that eternal salvation is by grace through faith and not by works.
This has the truth that Christ's grace has saved us all without any involvement on our part. What you insist upon is that we are sanctified under that grace by doing nothing but "CLAIM IT." We are saying we are sanctified under that grace through "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. You want to avoid any requirement but the "easy believer" view. How do you know that YOUR do nothing "ear tickling" view was not the apostate false Gospel our ancestors were warned about?
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:56 PM
 
545 posts, read 405,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balunman View Post
Salvation is not earned. We Christians want to serve God and by so doing we do many good works and are always trying to become more Christ like. You can never become more "Christian" for your works are not what results in salvation or becoming a Christian. They are not related in that way.
Oh I see what your saying now, You say trying to become more Christlike...thats what I was saying, more Christian. There are all kinds of Christians some who will take all your money when your not looking or other things, your honor for example. To say salvation is not earned is to suggest you are never tempted to do one thing wrong, not one thought or will to do one thing at all out of step with a God like spirit. So self review and attempt to as you say become more Christlike is an effort, and earned. Thats how it works, the salvation is always being earned because there is always a relationship with truth etc.. in the belief. Alive & active in and for the salvation. So we agree and its a translation word thing.

Last edited by macpherson; 07-23-2013 at 04:05 PM..
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:00 PM
 
Location: In a state of Grace
796 posts, read 745,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macpherson View Post
Oh I see what your saying now, You say trying to become more Christlike...thats exactly what I said, more Christian. There are all kinds of Christians some who will take all your money when your not looking or other things, your honor for example. To say salvation is not earned is to suggest you are never tempted to do one thing wrong, not one thought or will to do one thing at all out of step with a God like spirit. So self review and attempt to as you say become more Christlike is an effort, and earned.
Salvation of becoming a Christian is not earned. You need to separate it from the idea of works all together. For if Jesus' finished work is not sufficient then we can surly do nothing better. Once we become a Christian we will as a result of that salvation, do good works and try to become more Christ like (not more Christian for that is a finished work of salvation). If you attach any work of yourself to your salvation you reject the finished work of Jesus Christ. It's telling Jesus that He is not good enough so you have to do it yourself.
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:07 PM
 
545 posts, read 405,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balunman View Post
Salvation of becoming a Christian is not earned. You need to separate it from the idea of works all together. For if Jesus' finished work is not sufficient then we can surly do nothing better. Once we become a Christian we will as a result of that salvation, do good works and try to become more Christ like (not more Christian for that is a finished work of salvation). If you attach any work of yourself to your salvation you reject the finished work of Jesus Christ. It's telling Jesus that He is not good enough so you have to do it yourself.
can you read my posts over if u have time and I will get back to this later. Its possible you are reading to quickly and not allowing for a terminology difference, i think thats all it is, a word thing. For example a hitler type guy or very selfish christian is charitable for his own ends only, those would be works and not help a cruel selfish person and I agree.

Last edited by macpherson; 07-23-2013 at 04:29 PM..
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:16 PM
 
Location: In a state of Grace
796 posts, read 745,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macpherson View Post
can you read all my posts over if u have time and I will get back to this later. Its possible you are reading to quickly and not allowing for our obvious terminology difference, i think thats all it is, a word thing.
I was trying to make sure that was the case and that you understood where I draw the difference between becoming a Christian or as it's called, Salvation and works to become more Christ-like.
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:25 PM
 
545 posts, read 405,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balunman View Post
I was trying to make sure that was the case and that you understood where I draw the difference between becoming a Christian or as it's called, Salvation and works to become more Christ-like.
ok thanks thats what I thought, I think we just mix words a little different
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:06 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,208 posts, read 19,300,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The problem with your position is that it does NOT understand what Faith IS and how anyone can know whether or not they HAVE it. You are of the "CLAIM IT" school of theology or the "easy believer" school. Those of us who follow Christ's commands to His disciples are of the "SHOW IT" school of theology through "love of God and each other" daily and repent when we don't revealed in our "fruits."
This has the truth that Christ's grace has saved us all without any involvement on our part. What you insist upon is that we are sanctified under that grace by doing nothing but "CLAIM IT." We are saying we are sanctified under that grace through "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. You want to avoid any requirement but the "easy believer" view. How do you know that YOUR do nothing "ear tickling" view was not the apostate false Gospel our ancestors were warned about?
On the contrary. I know very well what faith is. Faith is not commitment to a life of obedience although the believer in Christ should certainly desire to be obedient.

Faith is simply trusting in another. Faith as it relates to eternal salvation is, upon recognizing that Jesus died on the Cross for your sins, simply entrusting your eternal salvation to Him.

The believer is indeed POSITIONALLY sanctified the very moment he believes on Christ. However, the believer's EXPERIENTIAL sanctification is a matter of spiritual growth after salvation.

Every believer in Jesus Christ has been positionally sanctified in Christ the moment he believes in Christ.
Excerpt:
“Sanctify,” means “set apart for God’s exclusive use.” Our sanctification is past, present and future. We have been sanctified, we are being sanctified and we shall be sanctified. These three aspects speak of our positional sanctification (1 Cor. 6:11; 1:2; Heb. 10:10), experiential or progressive sanctification (1 Pet. 1:6; 2 Cor. 7:1), and ultimate or perfect sanctification (1 John 3:1-3).
Read more >>> Positional Sanctification
1.) Positional Sanctification

2.) Experiential Sanctification

3.) Ultimate Sanctification

And how very judgmental of you to assume that those who understand that salvation is by grace though faith, and not by works do not follow the commands of Christ. Especially since I have pointed out more than once that God expects the believer to pick up his cross and follow Jesus.

Last edited by Michael Way; 07-23-2013 at 05:16 PM..
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:17 PM
 
47,747 posts, read 30,152,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
On the contrary. I know very well what faith is. Faith is not commitment to a life of obedience although the believer in Christ should certainly desire to be obedient.
No one mentioned anything about obedience, Mike. Faith is the inner motivation that drives our behaviors and choices. That is why our "fruits" reveal our faith.
Quote:
Faith is simply trusting in another. Faith as it relates to eternal salvation is, upon recognizing that Jesus died on the Cross for your sins, simply entrusting your eternal salvation to Him.
The believer is indeed POSITIONALLY sanctified the very moment he believes on Christ. However, the believer's EXPERIENTIAL sanctification is a matter of spiritual growth after salvation.
Every believer in Jesus Christ has been positionally sanctified in Christ the moment he believes in Christ.
Repeating your "easy believer" views will not make them true. It is fortunate that the underlying truth is there . . . that we do not have to DO anything to BE saved. Christ did that for us. But our actual life experiences and "works" will determine how we are treated upon death and rebirth as Spirit . . . NOT what we claimed to believe. The temporary chastisement or "refinement" will be different for each of us depending on what we have repented of and what we have not. That is what I think will prove to be the biggest surprise (and disappointment) for you.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:25 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,208 posts, read 19,300,091 times
Reputation: 11539
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No one mentioned anything about obedience, Mike. Faith is the inner motivation that drives our behaviors and choices. That is why our "fruits" reveal our faith. Repeating your "easy believer" views will not make them true. It is fortunate that the underlying truth is there . . . that we do not have to DO anything to BE saved. Christ did that for us. But our actual life experiences and "works" will determine how we are treated upon death and rebirth as Spirit . . . NOT what we claimed to believe. The temporary chastisement or "refinement" will be different for each of us depending on what we have repented of and what we have not. That is what I think will prove to be the biggest surprise (and disappointment) for you.
Again, faith is simply a matter of trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

And you who do not even believe in the substitutionary death of Christ on the Cross, and who wrongly believes that everyone is already saved without even the need to believe on Christ, are in no position to try to tell others what faith is, or any other Biblical teaching.

The free gift of eternal salvation is received by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. If a person does not place his trust in Jesus he remains under condemnation. But having once believed on Christ a person is saved forever.

And again, how very judgmental of you to assume that those who understand that salvation is by grace through faith do not follow the commands of Christ. Especially since I have pointed out more than once that God expects the believer to pick up his cross and follow Jesus.

Also, again, every believer is positionally sanctified at the moment he first believes on Christ. Experiential sanctification is a matter of spiritual growth. Learn the difference between the two.

Last edited by Michael Way; 07-23-2013 at 05:34 PM..
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:36 PM
 
47,747 posts, read 30,152,747 times
Reputation: 6577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, faith is simply a matter of trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.
And you who do not even believe in the substitutionary death of Christ on the Cross, and who wrongly believes that everyone is already saved without even the need to believe on Christ, are in no position to try to tell others what faith is, or any other Biblical teaching.The free gift of eternal salvation is received by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. If a person does not place his trust in Jesus he remains under condemnation. But having once believed on Christ a person is saved forever.
You are mistaken, Mike . . . I know that "believe ON" Christ is not the same as claims to "believe in" Christ. Those who "believe ON" Christ and respond to His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within are revealed by their "fruits," period . . . NOT their claims or pronouncements . . . or the religion they claim to be a member of. Religious membership has nothing to do with faith in Christ . . . THAT is strictly for the benefit of the religions.
Quote:
And again, how very judgmental of you to assume that those who believe that salvation is by grace through faith do not follow the commands of Christ.
I apologize if I gave you the impression that I do not think you follow the commands of Christ, Mike. It was not my intent at all. I would never presume to judge a brother or sister.
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