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Old 07-18-2013, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This thread is about what is required for eternal salvation. It is not about the believer's works after salvation. It has been plainly shown in the OP that works are not a requirement for eternal salvation.

Scripture states that grace excludes works on our part and that eternal salvation is by grace. Therefore works are not a part of salvation.

It was also plainly stated in the OP that works are a part of the believer's life after salvation and that they are not to be mixed up.
And what I am saying is that "FAITH" is much more organic than your bookn definitions of "belief." How else can I say it. The problem here is not "faith + works," but the fact that a living faith is made up of a realization of error, a belief that Jesus set us right and a commitment to a new way of life.

L I V I N G faith, not dead intellectual concepts.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:22 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,290 posts, read 19,330,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
And what I am saying is that "FAITH" is much more organic than your bookn definitions of "belief." How else can I say it. The problem here is not "faith + works," but the fact that a living faith is made up of a realization of error, a belief that Jesus set us right and a commitment to a new way of life.

L I V I N G faith, not dead intellectual concepts.
No book definitions have been used. The Scriptures explain themselves. This thread is not about the life of the believer after salvation. It is about the fact that salvation is through faith alone. Not by works.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:30 PM
Status: "Welcome to Orwell's 1984 -- Make Orwell Fiction Again!!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Chicago Area
11,084 posts, read 5,184,626 times
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Quote:
Eternal Salvation; Through Faith Alone, or by Faith plus works?
Everyone who ever lived receives eternal salvation eventually, regardless of what they did or didn't do.

Going beyond that, your underlying question makes absolutely no sense. Take a brand new fully functioning car. What you are asking is like asking, "Will the car work okay or do I need to put an engine in it." Well, ... it already has an engine in it.

Anything that we erroneously call faith that does not lead us to do good works isn't actually faith. Just as the engine is part of the car all along, works have always been part of faith. They come before, during and after. It's easy to look at a passage and say, "Ah ha! Faith is all we need!" But you fail to understand the intended meaning.

The word translated as "faith" in our English New Testament means more than merely believing. The Greek word is almost always pistis which meant “faithful, trustworthy, reliable, true." That word had “two sides”. It could refer to “trustworthiness”, “faithfulness”, “honesty”, but it was also used in the meaning “trust in others”, “persuasion of a thing”, “confidence”, “assurance”.

Where the English New Testament says, “to believe”, the Greek word is most often pisteuô. In old Greek, that is a verb meant such things as “to trust” and “to rely on”, and also, “to entrust something to another” and “to be entrusted with something”.

Both words are two-sided. When used in reference to God and Christ, they signify a two-way trust. We trust God, and He trusts us. He does certain things for us, and we do certain things for him. The Lord frequently uses the metaphor of marriage to describe the relationship between God and his people. Being dependable, faithful, true and committed to your spouse goes well beyond the marriage ceremony. You can't have a successful marriage by doing nothing. Obviously, you don't go sleeping around, you do for them before you do for yourself, you build your entire life around them. Likewise, having faith in God means being faithful, dedicated and building your life around Him.

Like I said, it's an argument over whether a car or an engine will get you where you want to go. Good works are part of faith, so asking whether it's either/or is just silly.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Arizona
25,338 posts, read 11,749,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No book definitions have been used. The Scriptures explain themselves.
This thread is not about the life of the believer after salvation.

It is about the fact that salvation is through faith alone. Not by works.
If you believe in separation, then you are working your way back through that which you believe.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:36 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,290 posts, read 19,330,612 times
Reputation: 11580
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Everyone who ever lived receives eternal salvation eventually, regardless of what they did or didn't do.

Going beyond that, your underlying question makes absolutely no sense. Take a brand new fully functioning car. What you are asking is like asking, "Will the car work okay or do I need to put an engine in it." Well, ... it already has an engine in it.

Anything that we erroneously call faith that does not lead us to do good works isn't actually faith. Just as the engine is part of the car all along, works have always been part of faith. They come before, during and after. It's easy to look at a passage and say, "Ah ha! Faith is all we need!" But you fail to understand the intended meaning.

The word translated as "faith" in our English New Testament means more than merely believing. The Greek word is almost always pistis which meant “faithful, trustworthy, reliable, true." That word had “two sides”. It could refer to “trustworthiness”, “faithfulness”, “honesty”, but it was also used in the meaning “trust in others”, “persuasion of a thing”, “confidence”, “assurance”.

Where the English New Testament says, “to believe”, the Greek word is most often pisteuô. In old Greek, that is a verb meant such things as “to trust” and “to rely on”, and also, “to entrust something to another” and “to be entrusted with something”.

Both words are two-sided. When used in reference to God and Christ, they signify a two-way trust. We trust God, and He trusts us. He does certain things for us, and we do certain things for him. The Lord frequently uses the metaphor of marriage to describe the relationship between God and his people. Being dependable, faithful, true and committed to your spouse goes well beyond the marriage ceremony. You can't have a successful marriage by doing nothing. Obviously, you don't go sleeping around, you do for them before you do for yourself, you build your entire life around them. Likewise, having faith in God means being faithful, dedicated and building your life around Him.

Like I said, it's an argument over whether a car or an engine will get you where you want to go. Good works are part of faith, so asking whether it's either/or is just silly.
No, everyone does not receive eternal salvation eventually.

And as was shown, grace excludes works on our part otherwise it isn't grace. And salvation is by grace. Therefore works are not a part of eternal salvation.

The issue of the spiritual dynamics of the believer's life after salvation is not the topic of this thread. The only topic is whether works must be added to faith to be saved. And as shown, they are not.

Faith with regard to receiving the gift of eternal life is simply trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Nothing more.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:39 PM
 
47,975 posts, read 30,201,418 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are contradicting your strong (and correct) assertion that we have nothing to do with our salvation. Christ did it ALL. Claiming we must do ANYTHING to be saved is contradictory. You are referring to our sanctification and THAT does require works . . . through "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. It is your misunderstanding of "believe ON" that is misleading you and your mentors. What matters is an INNER conviction and acceptance of the guidance of Christ's Holy Spirit (Comforter) that directs us . . . NOT an external claim and acknowledgment. It can only be seen by its "fruits" . . . not what anyone proclaims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
Belief is not a work. It is an act of faith.
And you do not seem to know what the difference is between expressed belief and faith . . . or why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. I am not. By denying that you must have faith in Christ in order to receive the free gift of eternal life you pit the Bible against itself. The same Bible which states that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus just as plainly states multiple times that one must believe on Christ in order to be eternally saved. There is no merit in faith. Man cannot take any credit for trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Putting your non-meritorious faith in the finished work of Christ precludes you from putting any faith in anything that you do. They are mutually exclusive.
I am not denying that we must have faith in Christ . . . you are misidentifying what faith is as distinct from expressed belief. Faith has nothing to do with what you claim to believe or not believe. It is what you trust to follow in your inner motivations and actions and is revealed ONLY by your "fruits" . . . or what you call works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Faith without works is dead....no faith at all. Faith is not a book definition of 'believe," it is MUCH more organic than that. We are not looking for dead faith, but a living faith that expressees itself in action. you can bandy words and definitions to your heart's content but what Jesus intended was a people set apart eager to do good works and you know this if you look in your heart and not your doctrines.
Amen, brother!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This thread is about what is required for eternal salvation. It is not about the believer's works after salvation. It has been plainly shown in the OP that works are not a requirement for eternal salvation.
Scripture states that grace excludes works on our part and that eternal salvation is by grace. Therefore works are not a part of salvation.
It was also plainly stated in the OP that works are a part of the believer's life after salvation and that they are not to be mixed up.
By thinking that there is something we must do to achieve salvation you deny your own theology. Saying " works are a part of the believer's life after salvation" implies that there is a point in someone's life that they achieve salvation . . . which is nonsense. Christ did it for us and that means that we are ALL living our lives "after salvation." The massive inconsistencies in your theology undermine the truths that are contained in them.We are all saved . . . our faith in that is determined by our sanctification which is revealed by our works. But whether or not we show our faith in our "fruits"(works) . . . we are "saved as by fire" because of Jesus.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,693,826 times
Reputation: 1846
Quote:
Originally Posted by M[I
ike555;30558177]

Faith with regard to receiving the gift of eternal life is simply trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Nothing more.
So you say. Scripture indicates that there is a lot more to it than that and that faith that is nothinng more than that "knowledge" without a commitment to a new way of life is worthless, "dead." BUT that's only because it is.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:03 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,290 posts, read 19,330,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
By thinking that there is something we must do to achieve salvation you deny your own theology. Saying " works are a part of the believer's life after salvation" implies that there is a point in someone's life that they achieve salvation . . . which is nonsense. Christ did it for us and that means that we are ALL living our lives "after salvation." The massive inconsistencies in your theology undermine the truths that are contained in them.We are all saved . . . our faith in that is determined by our sanctification which is revealed by our works. But whether or not we show our faith in our "fruits"(works) . . . we are "saved as by fire" because of Jesus.

Since no one is saved until a non-meritorious decision is made to trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross there IS a point when salvation is received. And if a person does not trust in Christ then that person does not receive the gift of salvation, but remains under condemnation.

We are not all saved, and there will not be a time when everyone will be saved.

Everything that needed to be done to make salvation possible was accomplished at the Cross. Trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross adds nothing to that work which Christ has already done. You do not add to the work that made salvation possible by trusting in Christ.

But God does not impute His righteousness to a person until they respond to the gospel through faith in Christ. And without having the imputed righteousness of God you remain under condemnation.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

That means that whoever does not believe on Him will perish and not have everlasting life. He will be separated from God forever in the lake of fire if he does not trust in Christ for salvation.

And now this thread is being forced to defend the truth against the heresy of Universalism. The topic of this thread is that salvation is through faith alone and not by works.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:09 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,290 posts, read 19,330,612 times
Reputation: 11580
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
So you say. Scripture indicates that there is a lot more to it than that and that faith that is nothinng more than that "knowledge" without a commitment to a new way of life is worthless, "dead." BUT that's only because it is.
Again you are trying to make this about the believer's spiritual life after salvation. Scripture says that salvation is by grace and that grace excludes works from salvation. Commitment is effort. It is work. Commitment therefore belongs to the believers spiritual life. Not to the issue of salvation.

If grace excludes works, and it does, otherwise grace is no longer grace, and if salvation is by grace, and it is, then salvation excludes works.

Three passages were given in the OP which state clearly that works on our part are not involved in salvation.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,693,826 times
Reputation: 1846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again you are trying to make this about the believer's spiritual life after salvation. Scripture says that salvation is by grace and that grace excludes works from salvation. Commitment is effort. It is work. Commitment therefore belongs to the believers spiritual life. Not to the issue of salvation.

If grace excludes works, and it does, otherwise grace is no longer grace, and if salvation is by grace, and it is, then salvation excludes works.

Three passages were given in the OP which state clearly that works on our part are not involved in salvation.
No, I am talking about what FAITH means. How many different ways can I say this? It is NOT about the works that are done after salvation, it is about what it means to have faith, and that is about believing in
Christ to make a difference.
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