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all I know is you can't separate good works and faith, and i wouldn't think many Christians would.. because the gift is an invitation for good works alongside the spirit. a unity in other words. it may prob arrive at eternity but a Christian does things with both hands and not one for something to get, people( the neighbor) can tell anyway so it won't work...I think these are wording issues but they wind up with a 'potential improper way to express the whole idea of it....and then suggestions are what they are, significant.
Last edited by macpherson; 07-25-2013 at 01:13 PM..
the other thing I think and it could be debatable with regards to good works, a person cannot be introduced to Christianity, know the meaning and idea of sacrifice and peace and virtue including the availability offered by god through the holy spirit in this unity, and mock it, deprave it, get in the way of it, refuse to acknowledge this kind mercy of god...and have solitary good works out preform the mercy of god through the son and the holy spirit.
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Works have a place in the believer's spiritual life after salvation, but have no place whatsoever as a requirement for salvation.
Believe Jesus and believe Paul as they are in agreement. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works.
So, Mike, can you please tell me what "calling and election" are and what it is that what amounts to sanctification does to make them "sure?" 2 Pet 1:10
Calling is the invitation to come to Christ for salvation. The call is issued through the gospel message.
2 Thess. 2:14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Election and predestination are two sides of the same coin. Predestination is not to salvation with reference to being saved from the penalty of sin (phase one), but rather predestination is concerned with what those who God knew from eternity past would believe on Christ are predestined to. Ultimately to be conformed to the image of His Son so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren (Romans 8:29). (Phase three).
Election is God's plan for believers only. It refers to being chosen, selected, set apart for privilege. Election is declared through God's foreknowledge. Israel has its election (Deut. 7:6, 14:2; Isa. 41:8-9), and the Church has its election (Rom. 8:30; Eph. 1:40).
2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.
Stumbling or falling does not refer to loss of salvation, but has to do with the believer tripping up in his spiritual life and advance. It refers to suffering a reversal in his spiritual life. If a believer is continually advancing in the virtues mentioned in verses 5-7 he will not trip up in his spiritual life as easily as a spiritually immature believer. The spiritually advancing believer will not lose his confidence concerning his standing with God.
And if you ask about 2 Peter 1:11;
2 Pet. 1:11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly ( plousiós; richly) supplied to you.
This refers to the believer who perseveres in his spiritual life receiving a rich welcome into the kingdom, 'well done good and faithful servant', as opposed to the believer who does not persevere and is saved but as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15).
You can't be serious. Clearly this is talking about two different kinds of people who do things within their religion, "in your name." One group operates without any thought of merit, but with an attitude of caring for those around them, the other could care less about the people ("We Christians don't bother with good works as it is not a requirement for salvation") but follow their religious practices and make a show of being "Christian."
This story is about the conduct of "Christians."
No, it isn't. It is about Tribulational believers and unbelievers. See post #197 where I address this.
No it's not. Jesus is answering a question posed to him by the disciples about the end.
They had NO IDEA about Gentile Christians at the time when they asked that question. That can be seen in the book of Acts 1, 9-11 where the Jews had trouble accepting Gentiles who had received the Holy Spirit.
The context is a series of parables about Jesus' return and the final judgement. There is nothing remotely connected with Jew and Gentile or anything but the actions of those who professed to be operating in the name of the Lord. The lesson come after lessons about the things that will happen leading up to the Judgement and then goes on to the lesson about the Judgement. Where DO you come up with this stuff?
It is a parallel to Matt 7
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’:
No Mike . . . that is NOT what he said. He said your easy believism version of "believing ON" Jesus is wrong. You are confusing salvation . . . which we have nothing to do with because it is all Jesus . . . with avoiding reaping what we sow . . . which we have everything to do with. Salvation is a non-issue for us thanks to Jesus . . . but avoiding reaping what we sow is a major issue for us. That is where repentance comes in (which you do not believe is necessary). We will reap what we sow for everything we have not repented of "until we have paid the last mite" as Jesus said. That is why it is so important to follow His commands to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't.
The only work of God by which eternal life is received is what Christ has done, period. We don't have to DO anything to receive that . . . BUT we do have to DO something to avoid reaping what we sow in this life. We need to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't to attain the cover of Christ's love for us all. When we follow His commands to His disciples we attune our Spirits to His Holy Spirit (Comforter) in love. That is when we have the cover of His perfect love before God.
::Sigh:: Such complicated "precepts and doctrines of men" to pretend to explain the simple fact that even though they have called Him "Lord, Lord" (i.e. claimed to believe on Him) . . . He will say "Depart from me..." to reap what they have sowed.
Believing on Christ for salvation does not mean that you have anything to do with your salvation. It means that you are trusting in the one who did the work for your salvation. And you have already been told this.
You are the one who is confused. You defiantly reject the fact that those who do not believe on Jesus will perish and not have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
And again, this means that anyone who does not believe on Jesus will perish and will not have everlasting life in the presence of God but will be eternally separated from God in the lake of fire.
You cry 'doctrines and precepts' of men while totally oblivious to the fact that you are full of it.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-25-2013 at 02:17 PM..
So you consider knowing that you cannot do anything to save yourself, but must depend on Jesus Christ for your salvation to be self righteous and self justifying. You consider being justified as a result of having been credited with God's own righteousness as a result of believing on Christ, and not being able to be justified by your own works to be self justifying. Interesting.
I may have overlooked a question, but I did not evade it. I directed you specifically to John 6:27-29 where Jesus said that there is only one work of God by which eternal life is received. And that is to simply believe on Him. And believing on Christ is non-meritorious. You can not take any credit for believing on Christ.
And no, Jesus did not say in Matthew or anywhere else that those who don't practice good works will go to hell. He did however say that those who have no relationship with Him but claim to have done things in His name will be ordered to depart from Him because He does not know them (Matthew 7:22-23).
However, you are referring to the judgment of the nations spoken of in Matthew 25. And you don't understand it. This judgment will take place after Christ returns. The Tribulation will have ended and the Millennial kingdom will not as yet have been set up on the Earth. At the judgment of the nations both Tribulational believers and unbelievers will be judged. The sheep represent the believers and the goats represent the unbelievers. While it is not true today that you can necessarily tell a believer from an unbeliever by his works, in the Tribulation it will be true. Because of the increased lawlessness during the Tribulation the love of most will grow cold (Matthew 24:12). In the Tribulation it is believers who will be willing to help the Jews. Unbelievers will not be willing to help. The goats are the ones who do have not believed on Christ, and therefore do not have the imputed righteousness of God, and so they are condemned. I've spoken of this before on other threads.
The Millennial kingdom will begin with believers only. All unbelievers coming out of the Tribulation will be sent to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41). As people are born in the Millennium there will be those who do not receive Christ as Savior, but the Millennium will begin with believers only. And again, in the Tribulation the ones who are not willing to help the Jews are the unbelievers.
My last word on this particular topic, because I am stunned at the bull headedness I am reading here. It comes in the form of a parable:
Jesus to all those who believe faith alone saves you: Read My lips. Feed the hungry! Clothe the naked! Give shelter to the homeless! If you do, you get to join the party. If you do not, you know where you will end up. Get it?
Me again. We are ALWAYS being tested. The 1st century Christians PRACTICED these admonitions of Jesus. They LIVED according to His teachings. All this stuff about being saved was created by medieval Christians trying to justify their absolute failure to carry out the specific commands of Jesus.
BTW, to all you who think you can pick and choose which words of Jesus you accept, have you abandoned your families yet?
all I know is you can't separate good works and faith, and i wouldn't think many Christians would.. because the gift is an invitation for good works alongside the spirit. a unity in other words. it may prob arrive at eternity but a Christian does things with both hands and not one for something to get, people( the neighbor) can tell anyway so it won't work...I think these are wording issues but they wind up with a 'potential improper way to express the whole idea of it....and then suggestions are what they are, significant.
The issue is whether works are necessary for eternal salvation. And they are not. Works are the result of the believer's spiritual life. And not every believer is going to persevere in his spiritual life and have works.
Nothing in Matthew 25 indicates believers as opposed to unbelievers, it is ALL about actions and clearly it is about the actions of nominal believers as a pre-condition. Non-believers according to you are already judged and don't get this far in consideration.
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