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No, you don't know. You teach that everyone already has eternal life and does not need to place their faith in Christ to receive it. And that teaching comes straight from Satan.
You simply don't get it. Faith is from God the Father. He brings us to Christ. We only know we have faith by the "fruits" of our "love of God and each other" . . . NOT what we say or choose or accept or claim or profess. It is NOT our doing, Mike . . . it really isn't. I realize this flies in the face of all the evangelistic crusades and getting people to choose and commit to Christ, etc. etc. It tends to make religions superfluous. The simple truth is that we are brought to Christ by the Father, period. I was an avowed atheist for 30+ years. I chose nothing. He chose me and it was immediate, unambiguous and unmistakable. I did have to study and devote the next 40+ years to understand that it was Christ and why . . . to satisfy my intellect. But the truth remains . . . I chose nothing.
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And it is not about making a claim. It is about accepting as true, in response to the gospel message, the fact that Christ died a substitutionary death on the cross (something which You do not believe), and as a result, trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. By this, the one who believes is credited with the righteousness of Christ and is eternally saved.
It is true that Christ's death and rebirth as Spirit (resurrection) DID save us from eternal separation from God the Father. But it was only a substitution in that none of us were capable of doing it, period. It is like the designated hitter in baseball. We couldn't get the hit so Christ was sent in to hit for us.There was no payment or ransom to be paid . . . and the horrendous scourging and crucifixion was ALL OUR DOING because of our savagery and ignorance (sins) . . . NOT God's requirement as punishment for anything.
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While Jesus did the work on the Cross which makes salvation possible, no one is saved unless they place their trust in Christ for salvation. To deny that is to call John 3:16 a lie.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Everyone who hears the gospel must make a decision to accept it as true or to reject it as false. The Holy Spirit works to convict or convince the gospel hearer of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8-11). But the Holy Spirit can be resisted.
Acts 7:51 ''You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
You twist words. Experiential sanctification does require effort on the part of the believer. Experiential sanctification is the result of spiritual growth. And that requires making decisions to learn and to apply the word of God to your life.
Christ did NOT just make salvation possible . . . He saved us, period! What we need to be concerned about is the quality of that eternal life Christ attained for us. That means we need to be sanctified under His Love for us all through "love of God and each other" and repenting when we don't. It is through the love in our hearts that we attune ourselves to Christ's perfect love for us . . . and we gain the cover of His perfection before God.
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The term 'easy believism' is a slam, as I said, against those who teach as Paul stated, that you are saved by grace through faith and not by works.
Suit yourself. I use it to clarify what Faith actually is and how it differs from just chosen or accepted belief (whatever that means). I seek to make it obvious how we know we have it . . . because it is NOT a choice. Our "fruits" reveal it.
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Now again, since you say that experiential sanctification is something we must be concerned with (which it is), and since I have said that God expects the believer to pick up his cross and follow Jesus, how is it then that you accuse me of easy believism?
Because you disavow repentance and that is one of the fruits that is absolutely necessary to avoid reaping what we sow. You seem to dismiss Christ's commands to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when they don't . . . as legalism or obedience to the law and not part of faith in Christ. Correct me if I am in error..
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Furthermore, repentance is concurrent with faith in Christ. To repent - metanoia, is to change your mind. A person doesn't believe on Christ, and then, in response to the gospel message, he does believe on Christ. He has repented.
More easy stuff, eh? . . .now easy repentance. Repentance is sorrow for our bad acts and a genuine desire to correct them if possible. It is a change of mind in that we no longer feel as we did when we behaved and now wish to undo it.
If an evil person believes in Christ yet remains evil does that mean they are saved and go to heaven, though they continue to sin?
Yes. You even asking in the way you do, "if an evil person".. we are all evil according to Jesus. Try to see things the way God does. Jesus came to this world and said there is not one good person here. God does not see us on different levels. He sees us all as sinners to those who don't believe in Jesus. If you believe in Jesus, He sees you as righteous because it is Jesus' righteousness that made you righteous. But if they believe in Jesus and continue to sin rest assured the discipline of the Lord will fall on them.
Hebrews 12:5-8 (NIV) And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
Hebrews 12:9-11 (NIV) Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
It boggles the mind how some just cannot understand what is being said. You have explained it very well but they refuse to accept your answer and continue to argue against something you did not say. Seem's they only want strife and confusion.
Oh I understand perfectly well what is being said. It is based completely upon picking and choosing a verse here, a verse there, the twisting of James, and ignoring completely the words of Jesus that speak directly to the issue.
Who started this whole " faith alone" stuff? Luther? I'm sure those wicked if not downright evil clergy, those popes and cardinals and bishops, would have found great comfort if their own theologians had devised such a thing.
the picker / chooser theology has justified great evil, including slavery, including the disruption of military funerals, witch burning, and religious wars. So forgive me if I am less than tolerant of the picker/chooser school of theology.
I think it safe to say that whoever opined that faith is all you need to please the Creator, has never looked Death in the eye.
And is lazy, to boot.
Lip service is cheap.
Real service, like that of the Christ most of you profess to believe in, requires work.
To argue otherwise is to echo the petulant cries of a spoiled child who wants Mommy and Daddy to do everything - so the child can remain consequence-free.
I think it safe to say that whoever opined that faith is all you need to please the Creator, has never looked Death in the eye.
And is lazy, to boot.
Lip service is cheap.
Real service, like that of the Christ most of you profess to believe in, requires work.
To argue otherwise is to echo the petulant cries of a spoiled child who wants Mommy and Daddy to do everything - so the child can remain consequence-free.
Does the molded clay make itself more appealing or beautiful to the potter on its own or does the potter shape the clay to their desire? If it could, the finished clay could say to all who see it, "Look, I made myself more appealing to my creator and all of you!" Then the clay gets some of the glory for its beauty and the potter gets the rest.
We cannot make ourselves more righteous than Jesus already made us by His blood. Grace gives all the glory to Jesus, and none to men. Jesus made us righteous, therefore He gets all the glory.
Last edited by romans519; 07-27-2013 at 01:43 AM..
Yes. You even asking in the way you do, "if an evil person".. we are all evil according to Jesus. Try to see things the way God does. Jesus came to this world and said there is not one good person here. God does not see us on different levels. He sees us all as sinners to those who don't believe in Jesus. If you believe in Jesus, He sees you as righteous because it is Jesus' righteousness that made you righteous. But if they believe in Jesus and continue to sin rest assured the discipline of the Lord will fall on them.
Hebrews 12:5-8 (NIV) And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
Hebrews 12:9-11 (NIV) Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Then What keeps you from just sinning when ever you want, because in your theology it just simply doesn't matter all it?
Heck to people who believe this "Free Grace" stuff nothing really matters, they probably just go around sinning all they want like animals.
"Salvation doesn't come by works." - Bah hum bug!
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Works / Action / Doing
No one who has forsaken the world for God will miss out on eternal life. The Action of leaving for the sake of God is a Work thus they are justified by it according to this verse.
We even have the Beatitudes where Jesus list a bunch of traits and calls those people blessed. The Action of being one of those traits is a Work.
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Doing / Action / Work
We are Jesus's brothers if we repent and submit to the will of God.
What is the will of God?
"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
Jesus also tells us we must not become arrogant in our piety such as the Pharisees did, that we should not be hypocrites. The action of avoiding an action is in of it's self a "Work."
"Therefore test every thing, hold unto the good, but avoid every kind of evil."
You simply don't get it. Faith is from God the Father. He brings us to Christ. We only know we have faith by the "fruits" of our "love of God and each other" . . . NOT what we say or choose or accept or claim or profess. It is NOT our doing, Mike . . . it really isn't. I realize this flies in the face of all the evangelistic crusades and getting people to choose and commit to Christ, etc. etc. It tends to make religions superfluous. The simple truth is that we are brought to Christ by the Father, period. I was an avowed atheist for 30+ years. I chose nothing. He chose me and it was immediate, unambiguous and unmistakable. I did have to study and devote the next 40+ years to understand that it was Christ and why . . . to satisfy my intellect. But the truth remains . . . I chose nothing.
The idea that faith to believe on Christ comes from God (after you have already been saved because you were one of the lucky ones who God chose not to predestine to hell, which of course is a false doctrine) is a Calvinistic doctrine.
Faith is a system of perception just as rationalism and empiricism are systems of perception. Everyone has faith in something or someone. Faith directed toward Jesus Christ is no different than faith directed toward another person or toward some thing or toward some idea. The faith is the same in each case. Only the object toward which the faith is directed changes.
God calls through the gospel.
2 Thess. 2:14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faith in Christ comes by hearing the gospel and accepting it as true in response to the convicting ministry of God the Holy Spirit. And that convicting ministry can be resisted, and the gospel rejected.
Romans 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15] How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16] However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
In other words, faith in Christ is the result of hearing the gospel message. Faith is a response. A person will either accept the gospel message as true, or he will reject it as false.
God chooses based on His foreknowledge in eternity past of who would of their own volition respond to the gospel message.
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It is true that Christ's death and rebirth as Spirit (resurrection) DID save us from eternal separation from God the Father.
The work of Christ on the Cross made it possible for anyone who believes on Him to be eternally saved. Anyone who does not believe on Christ remains under condemnation.
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But it was only a substitution in that none of us were capable of doing it, period. It is like the designated hitter in baseball. We couldn't get the hit so Christ was sent in to hit for us. There was no payment or ransom to be paid . . . and the horrendous scourging and crucifixion was ALL OUR DOING because of our savagery and ignorance (sins) . . . NOT God's requirement as punishment for anything.
Again you attack the gospel of our salvation. There was indeed a payment to be paid, and Jesus paid it with His death on the Cross. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins which the Justice of God demanded.
Revelation 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9] And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation
Romans 6:20For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
Those are just two of a number of verses which state that man was redeemed or purchased from the slave market of sin by the death of Christ on the Cross.
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Christ did NOT just make salvation possible . . . He saved us, period!
No one is saved until they believe on Christ. Everyone is born already under condemnation and remains under condemnation unless they respond to the gospel message by trusting in Christ for eternal life.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
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What we need to be concerned about is the quality of that eternal life Christ attained for us. That means we need to be sanctified under His Love for us all through "love of God and each other" and repenting when we don't. It is through the love in our hearts that we attune ourselves to Christ's perfect love for us . . . and we gain the cover of His perfection before God.
Experiential sanctification is the process of spiritual growth after salvation. Before one can grow spiritually one must first receive the gift of eternal life by believing on Christ.
Positionally, every believer is sanctified at the moment he first believes on Christ.
Hebrews 10:10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
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Suit yourself. I use it to clarify what Faith actually is and how it differs from just chosen or accepted belief (whatever that means). I seek to make it obvious how we know we have it . . . because it is NOT a choice. Our "fruits" reveal it.
You cannot clarify what you do not understand. And you do not understand what faith is.
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Because you disavow repentance and that is one of the fruits that is absolutely necessary to avoid reaping what we sow. You seem to dismiss Christ's commands to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when they don't . . . as legalism or obedience to the law and not part of faith in Christ. Correct me if I am in error..
More easy stuff, eh? . . .now easy repentance. Repentance is sorrow for our bad acts and a genuine desire to correct them if possible. It is a change of mind in that we no longer feel as we did when we behaved and now wish to undo it.
I have already told you that repentance occurs at the moment of faith in Christ. To repent is to change your mind. Repentance -metanoia is not sorrow for our bad acts.
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3341
Original Word Word Origin
metanoia from (3340)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Metanoia 4:975,636
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
met-an'-oy-ah Noun Feminine
Excerpt:
Many people ask us about our name: Metanoia. Literally, it is a Greek word meaning “change of mind”. Yet the full meaning is somewhat more. In the New Testament, the word metanoia is often translated as “repentance”. But this kind of repentance is not about regret or guilt or shame; it implies making a decision to turn around, to face a new direction. Metanoia: Turn toward the light
And you ignore the fact that I have repeatedly said that God expects the believer to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. How is it then that you accuse me of dismissing Christ's commands?
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-27-2013 at 02:21 AM..
romans 4:3 for what does the scripture say? ''abraham believed god, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'' 4] now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5]but to the one who does not work, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, ...11] and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
you must do the believing. your faith in christ is credited as righteousness.
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Originally Posted by jerwade
so, you believe that he died because of your sin, as a human sacrifice.
And, you credit this to that of yourself through a penal substitution theory?
Which in essence, justifies the inward nature of the ungodly?
Christ died for the sins of the world making salvation possible for the human race.
Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ..... 12]but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
But the potential for salvation is realized only by those who place their trust or faith in Christ.
When a person believes on Christ God imputes His righteousness to that person as the Romans passage above states, which qualifies him to have an eternal relationship with God.
There are four steps to repentance.
#1: Recognize and discontinue the improper action.
#2: Verbally confess the action, thus giving the action a concrete form in your own mind.
#3: Regret the action. Evaluate the negative impact this action may have had on yourself or on others.
#4: Determine never to repeat the action. Picture a better way to handle it. There are two different types of transgressions: those between a person and God and those between one person and another. If you have wronged a person you must repay them.
Now "Easy Believeist" try to say you don't have to repent, that all you have to do is believe but that is evil and of the devil. We must repent of our sins and strive onward doing our best to do good, we must be responsible for our actions, we must follow the teachings of Jesus and the parts of the Torah which apply to us, the only part Jesus reformed was the Cleanliness laws the rest of it we must follow for any one who teaches you do not have to follow the Torah is of the devil.
No, it is not true that a person you refer to as an 'easy believeist' believes that you don't have to repent.
And there are not four steps to repentance. Repentance - metanoia is defined below.
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3341
Original Word Word Origin
metanoia from (3340)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Metanoia 4:975,636
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
met-an'-oy-ah Noun Feminine
Excerpt:
Many people ask us about our name: Metanoia. Literally, it is a Greek word meaning “change of mind”. Yet the full meaning is somewhat more. In the New Testament, the word metanoia is often translated as “repentance”. But this kind of repentance is not about regret or guilt or shame; it implies making a decision to turn around, to face a new direction. Metanoia: Turn toward the light
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As we live there is no such thing as having been "Born Again" rather we are constantly in the process of being "Born Again." The fruit we sow in life is not harvested till death. Each of our actions have reactions thus their is Karma, even should we be forgiven by God their is still justice for we reap what we sow.
The statement that there is no such thing as having been born again is contrary to what the Bible says. A person is born again the moment he believes on Christ. To be born again is to be regenerated. To be made alive.
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive (Aorist Indicative; it occurred in the past, at the moment you first trusted in Christ) together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
Of course, if you want to just disregard what the Bible says........
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I will repeat my question which no one ever took the time to answer:
If an evil person believes in Christ yet remains evil does that mean they are saved and go to heaven, though they continue to sin?
I am pretty sure that I did answer that question already. Once a person has accepted as true the fact that Jesus died for his sins, and therefore trusts in Christ for eternal life, he is eternally saved and cannot lose his salvation no matter how many sins he commits.
Evil by the way is a system of thought. It is the name of Satan's plan in opposition to God's plan.
The "easy Believest" is the Universalist. Christianity requires more! It requires "FAITH". So when someone talks about "easy believism" they can only be talking about the man made religion or UR or Universalism. Christianity does not work that way at all.
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