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Old 07-19-2013, 12:06 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,492 posts, read 19,491,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
No, I am talking about what FAITH means. How many different ways can I say this? It is NOT about the works that are done after salvation, it is about what it means to have faith, and that is about believing in
Christ to make a difference.
And how many ways can I say it that what it means to have faith directed toward Christ for eternal salvation is to simply put your trust in Him to provide eternal life. That and that alone is the topic of this thread. The topic is not about how faith should motivate the believer to live his life as a believer. These are two different issues.

The ONLY issue I am concerned with making clear on this thread is that you do not have to work for your eternal salvation, and indeed, you CANNOT work for your eternal salvation. It is a free gift which is received by grace, through faith in Christ Jesus. Period.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:07 AM
 
794 posts, read 733,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
And what I am saying is that "FAITH" is much more organic than your bookn definitions of "belief." How else can I say it. The problem here is not "faith + works," but the fact that a living faith is made up of a realization of error, a belief that Jesus set us right and a commitment to a new way of life.

L I V I N G faith, not dead intellectual concepts.
But how much of that commitment to the new way of life is required to save us?
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:11 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,742,642 times
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Mike, You made it clear in another thread that your definition of faith allowed someone to declare belief in Christ with no intention of making any kind of change in his life. My point is was and always will be that this is not FAITH, it is dead intellect and a travesty of what Jesus and the apostles clearly taught. It is not about having to perform, it is about being eager to perform good works whether one has the capability or not.
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:13 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,742,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
But how much of that commitment to the new way of life is required to save us?
Three pounds of commitment will do the job, got your commitment scales balanced properly?
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:38 AM
 
Location: New England
34,735 posts, read 23,258,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
But how much of that commitment to the new way of life is required to save us?
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:44 AM
 
1,160 posts, read 1,286,939 times
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Salvation is by grace alone. Works determine your Eternal reward. Some will have greater rewards than others even though they are all saved.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
11,355 posts, read 5,266,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker5in1 View Post
Salvation is by grace alone. Works determine your Eternal reward. Some will have greater rewards than others even though they are all saved.
^^ This ^^

We are still drastically over-rewarded mind you. But your faithfulness to God is very important and certainly not a waste of time and effort.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:33 AM
 
48,978 posts, read 30,516,125 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Since no one is saved until a non-meritorious decision is made to trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross there IS a point when salvation is received. And if a person does not trust in Christ then that person does not receive the gift of salvation, but remains under condemnation.
Illogical. Either we are saved by Christ or we are not saved by Christ until we save ourselves by proclaiming our faith in Him. The problem with your contradictory theology is that you do not know what Faith IS. it is not proclaiming anything."Believe ON" means living with an inner trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit to what God has "written in our hearts." God is not an egotist who needs recognition for His saving work. God is a loving Father who has adopted us all under the perfect grace of Jesus Christ. We will reap whatever we sow . . . but we are "saved as by fire" because of Jesus.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
11,355 posts, read 5,266,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, everyone does not receive eternal salvation eventually.

And as was shown, grace excludes works on our part otherwise it isn't grace. And salvation is by grace. Therefore works are not a part of eternal salvation.
We are all saved from eternal torment by grace alone, thanks be to God for it. But there's a lot more to eternal reward than simply avoiding eternal torment.

Quote:
The issue of the spiritual dynamics of the believer's life after salvation is not the topic of this thread. The only topic is whether works must be added to faith to be saved. And as shown, they are not.

Faith with regard to receiving the gift of eternal life is simply trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Nothing more.
Sure all you have to do is redefine the word "faith" to suit your purposes and ignore the original Greek meaning and intent of the word. The theology of "saved by grace alone, works don't matter" in modern Christianity is strange and it is very new doctrine. It simply didn't exist at all 300 years ago. It assumes that the greater majority of humankind will end up burning in hell for all eternity, yet claims that works have no part in salvation. If works have no part in salvation, then God simply saves everyone. If we don't have to do anythign at all to attain salvation, why wouldn't he?

You're putting the dividing line between eternal torment and eternal salvation as faith, yet you insist on using the modern English definition because it better suits your purposes. The context in ancient Greek does not mean "just believing and trusting." Conviction sufficient to lead to action and always doing good are part and parcel to what faith has always been. There is more to faith that you are making it out to be. Like I said, you're asking, "After I buy a new car do I need to buy an engine for it?" No, the engine was part of the car all along. Look under the hood of faith and you will find an engine called good works already there.

You are the one claiming that faith is the prerequisite to salvation. I'm just saying you don't have a correct understanding of the word. Unsurprisingly, this new theology was only made possible because the meaning of words has drifted over the centuries, but it was clearly not how the apostles understood it.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:53 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,492 posts, read 19,491,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Mike, You made it clear in another thread that your definition of faith allowed someone to declare belief in Christ with no intention of making any kind of change in his life. My point is was and always will be that this is not FAITH, it is dead intellect and a travesty of what Jesus and the apostles clearly taught. It is not about having to perform, it is about being eager to perform good works whether one has the capability or not.
Salvation is a gift that is received in the very first moment a person places his faith alone in Christ alone. When the gospel message is heard, the Holy Spirit makes the message understandable to the hearer and works to convict him of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8-11). If that person responds positively by simply trusting in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation, then in that moment of time he is saved forever.

Nothing is added to faith or trust as a requirement to receive or be credited with the righteousness of God.

Grace as stated in the Word of God excludes any work, any effort on our part to merit salvation. If it is by grace, then it is not by works. Otherwise grace is no longer grace. And salvation is by grace. Grace means that God has done all the work for our salvation. Man simply receives that salvation by trusting in Christ. Not by adding intentions to that faith. Not by making promises to give up sinning. Not by doing anything other than simply placing your faith in what Jesus has already done to make salvation possible.

Making changes in your life as a believer belongs to the spiritual life after salvation. It is a part of spiritual growth. It is not a requirement to receive eternal life.
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