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Old 07-29-2013, 12:58 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,792,229 times
Reputation: 1313

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
'I desire Mercy, not Sacrifice.'

Yet, they still fill their pockets on the false teachings of men.
Certainly can't admit that the accusations are bogus can you... any other ya but to justify yourself
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 6,261,013 times
Reputation: 4656
Default Faith and Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
More of your works based salvation arguments. You are refuted both by Jesus and by Paul. And passages have already been given over and over which show this to be true.
One can talk about faith, but the truthfulness of it has to be seen.

If you are a true believer and you have a living faith, it's evidenced by your works. If you have dead faith, you're usually condemning the works of other people, or condemning the sin of other people because you (generic "you" is utilized here) have nothing to show for yourself so you play the hypocrite by condemning others.

Salvation is a sovereign act of God whereby unregenerate sinners have the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) poured out on them, thereby causing them to be born again (John 3:16). God removes their sin-hardened hearts of stone and replaces them with hearts of flesh and fills them with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which causes them to walk in obedience to His statutes and judgments (Ezekiel 36: 26-27).

What don't you do because of your faith? And many who name the name of Christ can give you a long list of what they "don't" do.

But what DO you do because of your faith? Do you bless God and then curse men whom God made? Out of your mouth do both blessings and cursing proceed?

Or DO you follow the precepts outlined by James at the end of chapter 3 using Godly wisdom that is pure, peaceable, gentle, easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy?

The faith that Paul is commending is not the faith that James is condemning. Paul did speak of a saving faith that is blindly overlooked by those that want the blessings of God while avoiding the cross of the Christ. Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience, Philippians 2:12, "Therefore my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to ACT according to his good purpose."

He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in I Corinthians 9:24-27 would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in 2 Corinthians 13:5. TEST your faith, just as James wrote of the recurring tests of faith in his epistle.

Paul (I use Paul because he is so adored by antinomians) tells us our faith is living and never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience. Our faith can be shipwrecked (I Timothy 1:19), departed from (I Timothy 5:8), wandered from (I Timothy 6:10) and missed (I Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a waiver that exempts them from these verses.

Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matt 25:31-46). The people rewarded or punished are done so by their actions. And out thoughts (Matt 15:18-20) and words (James 3: 6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much a part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John: 3:3-5.

There are many who would sing the song, "Only Believe" written in the early part of the twentieth century. I prefer the older gospel song "Trust and Obey" for there's no other way.

What DO you DO because of your faith? Do your lips and your life agree?

We are not what we say, but what we do.

I accept both faith and works as taught in numerous places in the Scripture. And I have no apologetic for anything any other writer of Scripture has to say. Antinomians must constantly find reasons to say this scripture trumps that one, or this is what the other author REALLY meant. Or by explaining the author was writing to this group or that group instead of viewing every scripture as meant for oneself. It is all self-justification in order to deny with their lives what they confess with their lips.
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:28 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,128 posts, read 19,236,234 times
Reputation: 11447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
One can talk about faith, but the truthfulness of it has to be seen.

If you are a true believer and you have a living faith, it's evidenced by your works. If you have dead faith, you're usually condemning the works of other people, or condemning the sin of other people because you (generic "you" is utilized here) have nothing to show for yourself so you play the hypocrite by condemning others.

Salvation is a sovereign act of God whereby unregenerate sinners have the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) poured out on them, thereby causing them to be born again (John 3:16). God removes their sin-hardened hearts of stone and replaces them with hearts of flesh and fills them with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which causes them to walk in obedience to His statutes and judgments (Ezekiel 36: 26-27).

What don't you do because of your faith? And many who name the name of Christ can give you a long list of what they "don't" do.

But what DO you do because of your faith? Do you bless God and then curse men whom God made? Out of your mouth do both blessings and cursing proceed?

Or DO you follow the precepts outlined by James at the end of chapter 3 using Godly wisdom that is pure, peaceable, gentle, easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy?

The faith that Paul is commending is not the faith that James is condemning. Paul did speak of a saving faith that is blindly overlooked by those that want the blessings of God while avoiding the cross of the Christ. Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience, Philippians 2:12, "Therefore my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to ACT according to his good purpose."

He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in I Corinthians 9:24-27 would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in 2 Corinthians 13:5. TEST your faith, just as James wrote of the recurring tests of faith in his epistle.

Paul (I use Paul because he is so adored by antinomians) tells us our faith is living and never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience. Our faith can be shipwrecked (I Timothy 1:19), departed from (I Timothy 5:8), wandered from (I Timothy 6:10) and missed (I Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a waiver that exempts them from these verses.

Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matt 25:31-46). The people rewarded or punished are done so by their actions. And out thoughts (Matt 15:18-20) and words (James 3: 6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much a part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John: 3:3-5.

There are many who would sing the song, "Only Believe" written in the early part of the twentieth century. I prefer the older gospel song "Trust and Obey" for there's no other way.

What DO you DO because of your faith? Do your lips and your life agree?

We are not what we say, but what we do.

I accept both faith and works as taught in numerous places in the Scripture. And I have no apologetic for anything any other writer of Scripture has to say. Antinomians must constantly find reasons to say this scripture trumps that one, or this is what the other author REALLY meant. Or by explaining the author was writing to this group or that group instead of viewing every scripture as meant for oneself. It is all self-justification in order to deny with their lives what they confess with their lips.
One is saved the very moment he first trusts in Christ for eternal life. Whether or not he shows works afterwards does not change the fact that he was previously eternally saved and is eternally saved. There is no such thing as a faith which does not save with regard to eternal salvation. James was not talking about eternal salvation. He was talking about the believer having a productive spiritual life. You want to make the two one and the same. But they are not.

Nor is anyone condoning sin.
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Arizona
25,157 posts, read 11,684,510 times
Reputation: 2039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
"A Sacrifice is an ancient expression within Religion to justify their sins."

The Book of Jonah is quite interesting, it tells us of an entire community which was condemned to destruction; but were forgiven when they simply repented without ever offering a blood sacrifice. Of course they did fast, much in line with that of prayer. FOR MY HOUSE IS A HOUSE OF PRAYER. If you cannot afford a BULL, GOAT or TWO TURTLE-DOVES for your sacrifice, bring a tenth of an ephah (several liters worth) of FINE FLOUR for YOUR SIN OFFERING; the Priest will take a handful for the offering and pocket the rest. (Leviticus 5:11-13) SOUNDS PRETTY FAMILIAR TO ME!


He exemplified the greater aspect of the Spirit by and through that of walking in love, even to the point of his own death.

"Love does not acknowledge itself, rather it seeks out what it can do for that of others, even in the midst of pain and suffering."
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
So much for the God haters who accuse those OT writers of not understanding the nature of God and being barbaric savages ....but were forgiven when they simply repented without ever offering a blood sacrifice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
'I desire Mercy, not Sacrifice.'

Yet, they still fill their pockets on the false teachings of men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Certainly can't admit that the accusations are bogus can you...
Nowhere, has anyone said that we are not called to repentance?
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:37 PM
 
Location: New England
34,705 posts, read 23,099,166 times
Reputation: 2548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Nowhere, has anyone said that we are not called to repentance?
They to love point out what they think you need to turn from, but are blind themselves to what it is we turn to, they foolishly think it is towards a book and a man with a beard.

Repentance is not refraining from doing the the things we used to do, but being who we are supposed to be.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 6,261,013 times
Reputation: 4656
Default Paul's words are meaningless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
One is saved the very moment he first trusts in Christ for eternal life. Whether or not he shows works afterwards does not change the fact that he was previously eternally saved and is eternally saved. There is no such thing as a faith which does not save with regard to eternal salvation. James was not talking about eternal salvation. He was talking about the believer having a productive spiritual life. You want to make the two one and the same. But they are not.

Nor is anyone condoning sin.
Now here are Paul's words:

Philippians 2:12, "Therefore my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to ACT according to his good purpose."

I don't need to explain them, but you do. There is something intrinsically wrong with a faith that needs to keep explaining Scriptures to people. It's rationalization to fit the Scripture to a pre-set theology.

The Universalists are far more honest than the antinomians. It's far easier to see God forgiving everyone because that is in His nature than to see Him forgiving "lip service" Christians which fill our churches.

We are not what we say, but what we do.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:17 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
5,763 posts, read 4,529,700 times
Reputation: 5029
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Amen, Warden. Unreasoning credulity in the easy beliievism version of faith is too widespread and ingrained. it is also the justification for the existence and maintenance of churches and their memberships.

I like that term "easy Beliievism" Mystic, as it does describe accurately what is at work in the minds of many American Christians. I use the term "Social loafing" to describe those who think that "good" is described as belief in a certain philosophy, while I describe good as works which benefit the person and society without harming others. Good and good deeds go hand in hand. Easy to do IF you truly love yourself, your neighbor and your fellow man.

You know Mystic that I am a Humanist, so I practice helping others (charity) not for some eternal salvation, but because it is the right thing to do here on earth. There is no "salvation" other than what we as humans make; humanity will be saved not by some deity but by mankind's efforts. And overall, we are doing a pretty good job, it would seem.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:27 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,128 posts, read 19,236,234 times
Reputation: 11447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Now here are Paul's words:

Philippians 2:12, "Therefore my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to ACT according to his good purpose."

I don't need to explain them, but you do. There is something intrinsically wrong with a faith that needs to keep explaining Scriptures to people. It's rationalization to fit the Scripture to a pre-set theology.

The Universalists are far more honest than the antinomians. It's far easier to see God forgiving everyone because that is in His nature than to see Him forgiving "lip service" Christians which fill our churches.

We are not what we say, but what we do.
You have shown that you are incapable of explaining Paul's words. The only reason there has been so much explaining on this thread is because people such as yourself are incapable of understanding that eternal salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, and that the believer's spiritual life after salvation is a separate issue.

To work out your salvation does not mean to work for your salvation. It means that having been saved through faith alone in Christ alone, to then pick up your cross and follow Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Therefore be motivated to pick up your cross and follow Jesus.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
But the believer who does not 'work out his salvation' by picking up his cross and following Jesus is still eternally saved. The believer without works which are acceptable to God is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:15.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
And again you accuse those who understand that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works of promoting a sinful life of disobedience.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:41 PM
 
7,870 posts, read 11,180,014 times
Reputation: 3648
Thread closed pending moderator consideration.
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