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Old 07-19-2013, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Salvation is a gift that is received in the very first moment a person places his faith alone in Christ alone. When the gospel message is heard, the Holy Spirit makes the message understandable to the hearer and works to convict him of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8-11). If that person responds positively by simply trusting in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation, then in that moment of time he is saved forever.

This is as close as you come to addressing my point, the rest is the same song and dance. Faith is far more than intellectual assent to a concept, it is conviction and commitment. THEN the fruits will show that "make our calling and election sure"(read "show evidence of our faith so that we have no doubt".... as I have mentioned before more than once, if a person is not "eager to do good works" he needs ton examine the nature of his "faith."
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:05 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker5in1 View Post
Salvation is by grace alone. Works determine your Eternal reward. Some will have greater rewards than others even though they are all saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
^^ This ^^

We are still drastically over-rewarded mind you. But your faithfulness to God is very important and certainly not a waste of time and effort.
And 'this' is exactly what I have been saying. Works belong to your spiritual life and are the basis for eternal rewards. Eternal life is not a reward. Eternal life is a free gift which is received through faith alone.

You have eternal life by simply trusting in Jesus Christ for that eternal life. The believer's eternal rewards are earned based on his spiritual production during his time of this Earth after salvation.


I have never said that that faithfulness in your spiritual life is a waste of time. Distinguish between the moment of salvation which occurs when you first believe on Jesus Christ for eternal life, and the spiritual life after salvation. They are two different things.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:13 AM
 
47,747 posts, read 30,139,631 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And 'this' is exactly what I have been saying. Works belong to your spiritual life and are the basis for eternal rewards. Eternal life is not a reward. Eternal life is a free gift which is received through faith alone.
Mike, Mike, Mike . . . so close and yet so far from the truth. The free gift is not received through faith. We have faith that it is received and act accordingly . . . big difference.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:26 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,205 posts, read 19,291,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
This is as close as you come to addressing my point, the rest is the same song and dance. Faith is far more than intellectual assent to a concept, it is conviction and commitment. THEN the fruits will show that "make our calling and election sure"(read "show evidence of our faith so that we have no doubt".... as I have mentioned before more than once, if a person is not "eager to do good works" he needs ton examine the nature of his "faith."
You are an adherent of Lordship salvation which is not Biblical. You do not receive eternal life by making a commitment to live a life of obedience. You receive eternal life when you understand that Jesus died for your sins and therefore trust in Him to provide salvation.

You cannot make as a requirement for eternal life that which is only possible once you have already been saved through faith alone. Commitment is a part of your spiritual life as a believer. It comes after first being saved through faith. Faith for eternal salvation is not commitment to follow the commands of God. Faith is nothing more than trusting in the finished work of Christ.

At any point in the believer's spiritual life after salvation he is either advancing spiritually toward maturity or he is regressing toward or remaining a spiritual infant. Spiritual growth is fueled by metabolizing the Word of God and applying it to your life. If you are not making a volitional effort to take in the Word of God and apply it, then you lose spiritual momentum and regress in your spiritual life. In time you can end up living no differently than any unbeliever.

Fruit or works are the result of spiritual growth, of walking in the Spirit. They are not the means of producing growth.

The faith which saves eternally is the faith which simply has trusted in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Commitment in the spiritual life after salvation is an entirely different issue.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Mike, what is "calling and election?" What is it about living out the Way that makes it "sure?"

The "Lordship Controversy" has nothing to do with what I am saying and what has been pointed out about your simplistic definition of "faith." Faith is what is required, but faith is not "dead" intellect, it permeates every fiber of our being.

I'm not at all sure you can find a pigeonhole to stuff my objection to your travesty on the message of Jesus.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:16 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,205 posts, read 19,291,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Mike, Mike, Mike . . . so close and yet so far from the truth. The free gift is not received through faith. We have faith that it is received and act accordingly . . . big difference.
You are in direct opposition to what the Bible plainly says. Salvation is a free gift, but you receive it by believing on Christ.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
That means that anyone who does not believe on Him will perish and will not have everlasting life.


Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31] They said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."




Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved (salvation is the free gift) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:28 PM
 
47,747 posts, read 30,139,631 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Mike, Mike, Mike . . . so close and yet so far from the truth. The free gift is not received through faith. We have faith that it is received and act accordingly . . . big difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are in direct opposition to what the Bible plainly says. Salvation is a free gift, but you receive it by believing on Christ.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
That means that anyone who does not believe on Him will perish and will not have everlasting life.
Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31] They said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved (salvation is the free gift) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Faith and "believe on" are the same thing . . . but they do not mean what you think they mean, Mike.

John 6:40 (King James Version)

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

"believeth on" is pisteuō eis = the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul. That inner and higher prerogative is the Comforter (Holy Spirit of Christ) guiding us to what God has "written in our hearts."

As Paul states it in Romans 2:14

. . . When the Gentiles who have no law do by nature what the law prescribes, these having no law are a law unto themselves. They show the work of the law written in their hearts. Their conscience bears witness to them, even when conflicting thoughts accuse or defend them.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:41 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,205 posts, read 19,291,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
We are all saved from eternal torment by grace alone, thanks be to God for it. But there's a lot more to eternal reward than simply avoiding eternal torment.
No, we are not. All who die without coming to Christ for salvation will be separated from God forever.



Quote:
Sure all you have to do is redefine the word "faith" to suit your purposes and ignore the original Greek meaning and intent of the word. The theology of "saved by grace alone, works don't matter" in modern Christianity is strange and it is very new doctrine. It simply didn't exist at all 300 years ago. It assumes that the greater majority of humankind will end up burning in hell for all eternity, yet claims that works have no part in salvation. If works have no part in salvation, then God simply saves everyone. If we don't have to do anythign at all to attain salvation, why wouldn't he?

You're putting the dividing line between eternal torment and eternal salvation as faith, yet you insist on using the modern English definition because it better suits your purposes. The context in ancient Greek does not mean "just believing and trusting." Conviction sufficient to lead to action and always doing good are part and parcel to what faith has always been. There is more to faith that you are making it out to be. Like I said, you're asking, "After I buy a new car do I need to buy an engine for it?" No, the engine was part of the car all along. Look under the hood of faith and you will find an engine called good works already there.

You are the one claiming that faith is the prerequisite to salvation. I'm just saying you don't have a correct understanding of the word. Unsurprisingly, this new theology was only made possible because the meaning of words has drifted over the centuries, but it was clearly not how the apostles understood it.
Understand this. The Bible says that salvation is by grace. It also says that if it is by grace then it is not by works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
1.) Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2.) Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

3.) Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Ephesians 2:8 says that salvation is by grace. Romans 11:6 says that if it is by grace it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. If works were a requirement for eternal salvation then grace would not be grace. But salvation IS by grace and therefore works can play no part in salvation. Or in maintaining salvation.


Works are not the issue in salvation as the above verses show.

Nor is sin the issue because Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the world.

The issue in salvation is simply placing your trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

No one receives the righteousness of God until they believe on Christ. Without having the imputed righteousness of God you cannot have an eternal relationship with God.
Romans 4: 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (no one is justified before God by their works) 3] For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (man receives the righteousness of God through faith, not by works). 4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
The issue in eternal salvation is faith alone in Christ alone. Not works. As the Word of God says.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:51 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,205 posts, read 19,291,155 times
Reputation: 11529
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Faith and "believe on" are the same thing . . . but they do not mean what you think they mean, Mike.

John 6:40 (King James Version)

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

"believeth on" is pisteuō eis = the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul. That inner and higher prerogative is the Comforter (Holy Spirit of Christ) guiding us to what God has "written in our hearts."

As Paul states it in Romans 2:14

. . . When the Gentiles who have no law do by nature what the law prescribes, these having no law are a law unto themselves. They show the work of the law written in their hearts. Their conscience bears witness to them, even when conflicting thoughts accuse or defend them.
As I have said, to believe on Christ, to have faith in Him is to trust in Him for eternal life.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:30 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,205 posts, read 19,291,155 times
Reputation: 11529
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Mike, what is "calling and election?" What is it about living out the Way that makes it "sure?"

The "Lordship Controversy" has nothing to do with what I am saying and what has been pointed out about your simplistic definition of "faith." Faith is what is required, but faith is not "dead" intellect, it permeates every fiber of our being.

I'm not at all sure you can find a pigeonhole to stuff my objection to your travesty on the message of Jesus.
Lordship salvation is exactly what you are promoting. There is nothing about your faith which is meritorious. You cannot take credit for having faith in Christ. It is Jesus who has the merit. It is He who gets the credit. Your faith in the matter of eternal salvation is simply the means by which you take hold of the gift of salvation which God offers.

'Faith is a non‑meritorious system of perception based on confidence in the authority and the veracity (truthfulness) of another.' DOCTRINE OF FAITH

I am talking about phase one salvation in which a person is delivered from the penalty of sin.

You are talking about phase two salvation in which a spiritually growing believer is delivered from the power of sin in his life. You are talking about the spiritual life after salvation. I am talking about salvation which precedes the spiritual life. But you merge the two together as though they were one and the same, and they are not.

There are three stages or phases of salvation.

1.) Phase one: Saved from the eternal penalty of sin. This means that at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone, at the moment you realize that Jesus died for your sins, then in simply putting your faith in Him you are saved for all eternity.
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive (aorist indicative; In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time), together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6] and raised us up (aorist indicative) with Him, and seated us (aorist indicative) with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8] For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense. Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

At the very moment a person trusts in Christ for eternal life, he is made alive in Christ and is positionally raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenlies. The believer is in union with Jesus Christ and is positionally seated with Christ in His session at the right hand of the Father.


2.) Phase two: Saved from the power of sin. This is the spiritual life and the advance to spiritual maturity. The believer still has a sin nature after salvation and it is just as powerful as it was before salvation if the believer gives it that power. Before the believer was saved he was under the control of his sin natue. But after salvation the believer is free positionally from the power of the old sin nature because it was crucified with Christ. That means that the old sin nature is positionally dead. Not experientially, but positionally. The believer is positionally separated from its power and now has an option to either live his life under the influence of the Holy Spirit by staying in fellowship through the confession of sin as per 1 John 1:9, and applying God's word to his life, or he can live his life under the control of his sin nature. The believer can choose to put himself under the control of his sin nature like a dog returns to its vomit. So the believer has a choice. Life under the influence of the Holy Spirit or life under the control of his old sin nature. One or the other. As the believer applies God's word under the filling ministry of the Holy Spirit he is saved or delivered from the power of sin in his life.


3.) Phase three: Glorification when the believer is saved from the presence of sin when he dies and is absent from the body and face to face with the Lord.

When James asks his fellow believers...
James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
He is referring to phase two salvation. Being saved from the power of sin in the believer's life. Eternal salvation is not in view.

Because you don't make the distinction between phase one and phase two salvation, you are arguing with me about something I am not even talking about.

Last edited by Michael Way; 07-19-2013 at 01:54 PM..
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