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Old 07-19-2013, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,746,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
<snip>

Because you don't make the distinction between phase one and phase two salvation, you are arguing with me about something I am not even talking about.
Alright, arguendo, let's say I am a proponent of "Lordship salvation."

What you are arguing is known as "Cheap Grace." What is cheap grace? and it has apparently misled a lot of people who clearly have made no commitment to a change in their lives and have no desire to do so.

As I have said before and will continue to say, "If you are not 'eager to do good works' you seriously need to examine your faith.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
11,369 posts, read 5,272,828 times
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Quote:
At the very moment a person trusts in Christ for eternal life, he is made alive in Christ and is positionally raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenlies. The believer is in union with Jesus Christ and is positionally seated with Christ in His session at the right hand of the Father.
Um ... Ephesians said nothing similar to that. Paul is talking to people who are already in a covenant relationship with God anyways, so he's not offering a play by play on how to enter into that covenant relationship with God and Christ.

We do agree on some level I think. I would use the word covenant, you would use the word saved. Yes we do remain sinful and imperfect, but because we are in the covenant relationship with Christ, his sacrifice and infinite perfection makes up for our imperfection. As Paul would say, we are under grace. We do not earn it, it is simply given to us freely. We do our best and do good works, knowing full well that it can never be enough and that we are 100% dependent on Christ.

Where we disagree is:
1.) How a person enters that covenant relationship with Christ.
2.) I say you can turn your back on God and walk away from that covenant relationship. You seem to be saying that isn't possible.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:41 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,498 posts, read 19,500,996 times
Reputation: 11698
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Alright, arguendo, let's say I am a proponent of "Lordship salvation."

What you are arguing is known as "Cheap Grace." What is cheap grace? and it has apparently misled a lot of people who clearly have made no commitment to a change in their lives and have no desire to do so.

As I have said before and will continue to say, "If you are not 'eager to do good works' you seriously need to examine your faith.
There is no such thing as 'cheap grace.' The price for our salvation was paid by Jesus as He hung on the Cross and was judged for the sins of the world. Grace is all that God is free to do for man based on the work of Christ on the Cross. Because Jesus picked up the tab, salvation is free for man. You need only trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

Jesus paid paid the price.
Revelation 5: 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9] And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Therefore there is no price for us to pay. Salvation is a free gift.
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

And how is it that despite repeatedly saying it, you still do not understand that I am not even talking about how the believer lives after salvation? I am talking only about the fact that a persons eternal salvation is secured in the very first moment that he places his trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. You insist on arguing about something that I am not making any reference to.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:53 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,498 posts, read 19,500,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Illogical. Either we are saved by Christ or we are not saved by Christ until we save ourselves by proclaiming our faith in Him. The problem with your contradictory theology is that you do not know what Faith IS. it is not proclaiming anything."Believe ON" means living with an inner trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit to what God has "written in our hearts." God is not an egotist who needs recognition for His saving work. God is a loving Father who has adopted us all under the perfect grace of Jesus Christ. We will reap whatever we sow . . . but we are "saved as by fire" because of Jesus.
Your problem is that you think that faith is meritorious. It is not. The merit is in the one who did the work which made salvation possible. Man simply receives the free gift of salvation through faith in Christ.

No matter how much you ignore it, the Bible says time after time that you must believe on Christ in order to be saved. Faith regarding eternal salvation is simply trusting in Jesus Christ for your salvation .

Acts 16:31 'Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'

No one has eternal life until they put their faith in Jesus Christ. Period.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:20 PM
 
49,010 posts, read 30,531,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Faith and "believe on" are the same thing . . . but they do not mean what you think they mean, Mike.
John 6:40 (King James Version)

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

"believeth on" is pisteuō eis = the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul. That inner and higher prerogative is the Comforter (Holy Spirit of Christ) guiding us to what God has "written in our hearts."

As Paul states it in Romans 2:14

. . . When the Gentiles who have no law do by nature what the law prescribes, these having no law are a law unto themselves. They show the work of the law written in their hearts. Their conscience bears witness to them, even when conflicting thoughts accuse or defend them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As I have said, to believe on Christ, to have faith in Him is to trust in Him for eternal life.
But you do not seem to correctly understand what having Faith in Him means. You seem to think it is sincerely proclaiming that faith in Him once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Illogical. Either we are saved by Christ or we are not saved by Christ until we save ourselves by proclaiming our faith in Him. The problem with your contradictory theology is that you do not know what Faith IS. it is not proclaiming anything."Believe ON" means living with an inner trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit to what God has "written in our hearts." God is not an egotist who needs recognition for His saving work. God is a loving Father who has adopted us all under the perfect grace of Jesus Christ. We will reap whatever we sow . . . but we are "saved as by fire" because of Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Mike, Mike, Mike . . . so close and yet so far from the truth. The free gift is not received through faith. We have faith that it is received and act accordingly . . . big difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Your problem is that you think that faith is meritorious. It is not. The merit is in the one who did the work which made salvation possible. Man simply receives the free gift of salvation through faith in Christ.
Whether or not it is meritorious . . . it is something we must do according to you . . . so it is a "work."
Quote:
No matter how much you ignore it, the Bible says time after time that you must believe on Christ in order to be saved. Faith regarding eternal salvation is simply trusting in Jesus Christ for your salvation .

Acts 16:31 'Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'

No one has eternal life until they put their faith in Jesus Christ. Period.
Except WE cannot choose what we have faith in nor what we "believe ON." When we think we have chosen . . . we are fooling ourselves. We do NOT choose either Faith or true "belief on" Christ. We can only know if we have it by our "fruits." The "fruits" do not cause us to have faith . . . but they reveal that it actually exists.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,746,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And how is it that despite repeatedly saying it, you still do not understand that I am not even talking about how the believer lives after salvation? I am talking only about the fact that a persons eternal salvation is secured in the very first moment that he places his trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. You insist on arguing about something that I am not making any reference to.
At least as many times as I say, "I'm not talking about that either. I'm talking about what faith is and why how you live after salvation is an indication of saving faith.

"Cheap grace seeks to hide the cost of discipleship from people. It seeks to claim that as long as we make a profession of faith, we are saved. God’s grace covers all our sins. Again, that is a wonderful truth! The apostle Paul says as much when he writes, “Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:20-21). Yet, right after writing that, Paul follows it with this: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” (Romans 6:1-2). Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is so much more than simply mouthing the words “Jesus is Lord.” We are not saved by a profession of faith. We are not saved by praying the Sinner’s Prayer. We are not saved by signing a card or walking an aisle. We are saved by a living and active faith (James 2:14-26), a faith that manifests itself in repentance, obedience and love of God and our neighbor. Salvation is not a transaction; it’s a transformation. Paul says it best when he says we are “new creations” in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). There is nothing “cheap” about grace!"

Read more: What is cheap grace?
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 6,315,667 times
Reputation: 4656
Default True faith

True faith participates in the work of Jesus. True faith is more than confession and more than confessional.

A person of faith finds a way to live as Jesus lived and walk as Jesus walked, love as He loved, participate in the lives of the unlovable as Jesus did.

Rev. Damien de Veuster was a Belgian priest who in the 19th century traveled to Hawaii to live and minister among a community of 8000 lepers. I've heard that each morning he would arise and begin his morning service by saying, "I have good news for those of you who are lepers." After numerous years of doing so, one morning he said, "I have good news for those of us who are lepers."

He died of his disease at age 49.

He lived his faith. Not many would doubt his salvation. But those who condemn other sinners while placing a higher priority on confession with the mouth than service with their lives---are these people ones about whom other men and women would say, "Truly he was a child of God."

And if others can't see Christ in me, then I should take little comfort in the confession of my mouth.

The Catholic Church sainted Rev. Veuster a few years ago. I'm sure, he, like many soldiers we call "heroes" today, would say, "I was simply doing my job."

Priest who aided lepers to become saint - US news - Faith | NBC News
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:31 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,498 posts, read 19,500,996 times
Reputation: 11698
[quote=godofthunder9010;30567484]

Quote:
At the very moment a person trusts in Christ for eternal life, he is made alive in Christ and is positionally raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenlies. The believer is in union with Jesus Christ and is positionally seated with Christ in His session at the right hand of the Father.

Quote:
Um ... Ephesians said nothing similar to that. Paul is talking to people who are already in a covenant relationship with God anyways, so he's not offering a play by play on how to enter into that covenant relationship with God and Christ.
Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Every believer in this dispensation of the Church is positionally in union with Christ by means of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 3:26-27)

Every believer is born again or made alive at the moment of faith in Christ. See Ephesians 2:5 below.

Quote:
We do agree on some level I think. I would use the word covenant, you would use the word saved. Yes we do remain sinful and imperfect, but because we are in the covenant relationship with Christ, his sacrifice and infinite perfection makes up for our imperfection. As Paul would say, we are under grace. We do not earn it, it is simply given to us freely. We do our best and do good works, knowing full well that it can never be enough and that we are 100% dependent on Christ.

Where we disagree is:
1.) How a person enters that covenant relationship with Christ.
2.) I say you can turn your back on God and walk away from that covenant relationship. You seem to be saying that isn't possible.
The Bible plainly states that a person is saved at the moment of faith in Christ.
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive (Aorist Indicative) together with Christ (by grace you are been saved), 6] and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, ...8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
In Ephesians 2:5 'made us alive' is in the Aorist Indicative which refers to past action.
'In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.' Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)
Paul is writing to believers who were saved at the moment they believed on Christ.

And no, you cannot walk away from your salvation. You can turn your back on God, but once you are saved you cannot undo what God has done. Just to name one reason why the believer is eternally secure is because of the sealing of the Holy Spirit. The believer is sealed unto the day of redemption. A seal in Biblical times, as is the case today was used to guarantee security or indicate ownership. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is a promise, a guarantee of the believer's eternal salvation and eternal security. The day of redemption refers to ultimate glorification at the resurrection of the body.
Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14] who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Romans 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4] to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5] who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 6,315,667 times
Reputation: 4656
Default Great link, Nate

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Alright, arguendo, let's say I am a proponent of "Lordship salvation."

What you are arguing is known as "Cheap Grace." What is cheap grace? and it has apparently misled a lot of people who clearly have made no commitment to a change in their lives and have no desire to do so.

As I have said before and will continue to say, "If you are not 'eager to do good works' you seriously need to examine your faith.
This is a great link, Nate. And for the number of people reading this thread who apparently are sold on cheap grace, it would be wise for them to read "The Cost of Discipleship" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. But the nature of people who are dogmatic is not to continue seeking to grow, but to continue defending their dogma. It's more about self-justification than education. If you read something that challenges the religion you practice, you might be convicted to change the way you think and live.

God bless.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:42 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,498 posts, read 19,500,996 times
Reputation: 11698
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
But you do not seem to correctly understand what having Faith in Him means. You seem to think it is sincerely proclaiming that faith in Him once.





Whether or not it is meritorious . . . it is something we must do according to you . . . so it is a "work." Except WE cannot choose what we have faith in nor what we "believe ON." When we think we have chosen . . . we are fooling ourselves. We do NOT choose either Faith or true "belief on" Christ. We can only know if we have it by our "fruits." The "fruits" do not cause us to have faith . . . but they reveal that it actually exists.
It is you who not understand what faith is. 'Faith is a non‑meritorious system of perception based on confidence in the authority and the veracity (truthfulness) of another.' DOCTRINE OF FAITH

A person is responsible to respond to the gospel message by trusting in Christ for salvation. The Holy Spirit works to convict the hearer of the gospel message of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8-11). If the hearer is persuaded by the conviction of the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace with the result that he trusts in Christ, then he has eternal life at that moment.

You continue to ignore Biblical revelation which distinguishes faith from meritorious works, and which also states that a person has to believe on Christ to be saved. And that salvation occurs at the very moment of faith in Christ.
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