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Old 07-19-2013, 04:58 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,205 posts, read 19,291,155 times
Reputation: 11529

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
This is a great link, Nate. And for the number of people reading this thread who apparently are sold on cheap grace, it would be wise for them to read "The Cost of Discipleship" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. But the nature of people who are dogmatic is not to continue seeking to grow, but to continue defending their dogma. It's more about self-justification than education. If you read something that challenges the religion you practice, you might be convicted to change the way you think and live.

God bless.
Keep your unfounded accusations to yourself. I have plainly stated that the believer's spiritual life involves growing spiritually. But salvation must precede spiritual growth, and salvation is strictly a matter of grace through faith.

There is no such thing as 'cheap grace.' The price for our salvation was paid by Jesus as He hung on the Cross and was judged for the sins of the world. Grace is all that God is free to do for man based on the work of Christ on the Cross. Because Jesus picked up the tab, salvation is free for man. You need only trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

Jesus paid paid the price.
Revelation 5: 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9] And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Therefore there is no price for us to pay. Salvation is a free gift.
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:19 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,205 posts, read 19,291,155 times
Reputation: 11529
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
At least as many times as I say, "I'm not talking about that either. I'm talking about what faith is and why how you live after salvation is an indication of saving faith.

"Cheap grace seeks to hide the cost of discipleship from people. It seeks to claim that as long as we make a profession of faith, we are saved. God’s grace covers all our sins. Again, that is a wonderful truth! The apostle Paul says as much when he writes, “Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:20-21). Yet, right after writing that, Paul follows it with this: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” (Romans 6:1-2). Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is so much more than simply mouthing the words “Jesus is Lord.” We are not saved by a profession of faith. We are not saved by praying the Sinner’s Prayer. We are not saved by signing a card or walking an aisle. We are saved by a living and active faith (James 2:14-26), a faith that manifests itself in repentance, obedience and love of God and our neighbor. Salvation is not a transaction; it’s a transformation. Paul says it best when he says we are “new creations” in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). There is nothing “cheap” about grace!"

Read more: What is cheap grace?
There is no such thing as 'cheap grace.' The price for our salvation was paid by Jesus as He hung on the Cross and was judged for the sins of the world. Grace is all that God is free to do for man based on the work of Christ on the Cross. Because Jesus picked up the tab, salvation is free for man. You need only trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

Jesus paid paid the price.
Revelation 5: 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9] And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Therefore there is no price for us to pay. Salvation is a free gift.
[indent]Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.


And you cannot necessarily tell if a person is a believer by the way he lives. (Which again is not even the topic of this thread). A person could be a believer for 20 or 30 years but then react to some circumstance and get mad at God and turn away from Him and be an Atheist for the rest of his life. He is still eternally saved but denies God.

A person is saved the very moment a person simply entrusts his salvation to Jesus.

You have completely ignored what I told you in post #40 about making a distinction between phase 1 salvation which is deliverance from the penalty of sin, and phase 2 salvation which is deliverance from the power of sin. Phase 2 is the believer's spiritual life after salvation. One cannot enter into phase 2 until one has first entered into phase 1. And phase 1 is entered by faith alone, trust alone in Christ.

You are putting the merit in faith and in yourself. There is no merit in faith or in yourself. It is not the faith, it is the object of faith which is important.
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:35 PM
 
Location: In a state of Grace
796 posts, read 745,984 times
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God say's, :

"BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom 3:21) "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justftieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom 4:5) "Being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24) "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph 1:7) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Titus 3:5) "Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8-9)

Why not take His word for it?
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:08 PM
 
47,747 posts, read 30,139,631 times
Reputation: 6577
Quote:
Originally Posted by balunman View Post
God say's, :

"BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom 3:21) "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justftieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom 4:5) "Being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24) "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph 1:7) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Titus 3:5) "Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8-9)

Why not take His word for it?
We do take His word for it. You simply misunderstand what "believeth on" means! It has nothing to do with our choice or proclamations. Of course Christ justified our entire species by His life, death and resurrection (rebirth as Spirit). But it is His Comforter within our human consciousness that guides us to the truth God has "Written in our hearts." When we follow that inner guidance we are evidencing our faith and "belief on" Christ, period.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:27 PM
 
3 posts, read 2,410 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This will be short. Many people think that you must add works to faith in order to be saved. But God does not contradict Himself. And so if Scripture shows that eternal salvation is through faith in Christ Jesus, then eternal salvation cannot in any way be associated with any meritorious works on your part. I will use just three verses which show that works are excluded as a requirement for eternal life.

1.) Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2.) Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

3.) Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Ephesians 2:8 says that salvation is by grace. Romans 11:6 says that if it is by grace it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. If works were a requirement for eternal salvation then grace would not be grace. But salvation IS by grace and therefore works can play no part in salvation. Or in maintaining salvation.


Works are a part of the spiritual life after salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Don't get the two mixed up. And don't backload works onto salvation by using as some do, the following nice sounding but unbiblical phrase; 'While we are saved by faith alone, the faith that saves is never alone.' That is nothing but a back door approach to saying that if you don't have works you aren't saved.

But what about James you say? While I could explain James, the following study on the book of James goes into far more detail than I can on this forum while keeping it short.

What does James mean by 'saved'?

What does he mean by 'faith'?

What does he mean by 'justification' as opposed to Paul's technical use of the term?


If you consider it worth your while, then find out here.

Here is the link.>>> DeanBible.org: 1998 - James Go to the appropriate lessons concerning James 2:14-20, click and listen.


James-045 <<<----- Once in the site, click Here to listen
Does Saving Faith Necessarily Produce Good; James 2:13-16

James-046
Doctrine Plus Application; James 2:18-21

James-047
Vindication of Abraham by Works; James 2:20-24
I agree with you. But it depends whether or not your faith is genuine. Genuine faith results in obedience. Many Christians believe that going to church and confessing Jesus as their Lord and Savior will get them through the narrow gate. But Jesus said, "These people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me." (Matthew 15:8). Jesus also said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

If all you need is faith, why do so many Christians condemn homosexual practice? Why not let homosexual Christians practice their sin? If they have faith in Jesus, surely it doesn't matter how they live their life. However, the Bible tells us we are to keep God's commandments. If we fall short we can repent and be forgiven, but we cannot live in willful sin.

There is true faith and there is dead faith. Anybody can say they have faith in Jesus, but what good is their faith if they don't produce good fruit or keep God's commandments. A desire to obey God's commandments is a sign that your faith is genuine. The problem with focusing so much on "saved by grace through faith" is that it gives people the idea that they don't have to live a holy life because all they need is faith. But their idea of faith is often a faith that is dead, because they pick and choose what commandments to obey.

Enter by the narrow gate. Fear God and keep His commandments.

Last edited by Humble_Servant; 07-19-2013 at 08:43 PM..
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 6,274,209 times
Reputation: 4656
Default You are not well read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Keep your unfounded accusations to yourself. I have plainly stated that the believer's spiritual life involves growing spiritually. But salvation must precede spiritual growth, and salvation is strictly a matter of grace through faith.

There is no such thing as 'cheap grace.' The price for our salvation was paid by Jesus as He hung on the Cross and was judged for the sins of the world. Grace is all that God is free to do for man based on the work of Christ on the Cross. Because Jesus picked up the tab, salvation is free for man. You need only trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

Jesus paid paid the price.
Revelation 5: 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9] And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Therefore there is no price for us to pay. Salvation is a free gift.
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
If you would ever bother to read The Cost of Discipleship you might be in a position to know what Bonhoeffer means by cheap grace. It's cheap for those who think they have it with no expectations to live a life for God.

And if you aren't threatened by statements on this thread, you have no reason to feel accused.

And if you could display the honesty to reject James' writings as not meaningful to the person seeking Christ, then at least you could claim consistency. Until then, the words of James will haunt you unceasingly:

Quote:
James 2:14-26:
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
(ESV)

Here James is comparing two different types of faith: genuine faith which leads to good works, and empty faith (cheap grace) which is not faith at all. True faith is alive and backed up by works. False faith that has nothing to show for itself is dead.

I believe God is dealing with you, Mike. Your part in working out your salvation is calling to you. I won't respond again, because I sense you need to be a winner of words, therefore I yield to you. My prayer is that you yield to the Spirit of God and know Him beyond words.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 07-19-2013 at 08:38 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,680,203 times
Reputation: 1846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

You have completely ignored what I told you in post #40 about making a distinction between phase 1 salvation which is deliverance from the penalty of sin, and phase 2 salvation which is deliverance from the power of sin. Phase 2 is the believer's spiritual life after salvation. One cannot enter into phase 2 until one has first entered into phase 1. And phase 1 is entered by faith alone, trust alone in Christ.

You are putting the merit in faith and in yourself. There is no merit in faith or in yourself. It is not the faith, it is the object of faith which is important.
I did not ignore it. I stated that it is clear from scriptural references that faith is more organic than that intellectual definition. That it is not just a matter of intellectual assent, but a matter of commitment that is a part of the definition of faith as shown when James says show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith BY my works," and the inescapable conclusion is that the intent or commitment to a new way of life is an integral part of that faith. It is not merit, it is just the nature of faith. You attempt to separate what is a living thing and the result is dead faith.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:54 PM
 
3 posts, read 2,410 times
Reputation: 11
I do wonder sometimes whether there are atheists, Muslims, and even satanists, who pretend to be Christians, and go into churches and internet forums to cause divisions and crafty deceptions. Ever since the fall of man, Satan has been enticing people to disobey God. The reason we are all in this mess is because of disobedience. Whenever I come across a professing Christian who tries to imply or give the impression that Christians can enter heaven without keeping God's commandments, I smell a rat.

Neglecting the scriptures that talk about obedience while upholding the scriptures that talk about "saved by faith" is a very crafty deception. What these people fail to tell you is that, like I've said, there is genuine faith, and there is dead faith. I call it obedient faith--a faith that results in obedience. Adolph Hitler apparently believed in Jesus. But was his faith genuine? I'll let you decide.

So, don't be deceived when people hammer you with "saved by grace through faith," because it's talking about a genuine faith, not a dead faith. Don't let the wolves deceive you.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:04 PM
 
4,220 posts, read 2,273,899 times
Reputation: 220
I see that the OP does not have quotes from Jesus in whom Christians say they follow.

The son of man, Christ says;

"The man who has faith in me will do the works I do"

"All those who do good to the resurrection of life"

"Not everyone who cries to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of my heavenly Father."

"The righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their heavenly Father."

"No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and spirit."

"Anyone who does not eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood has no life in them."

"Anyone who drinks the water I give them shall never become thirsty, the water I give them shall be like a fountain inside them rising up to provide eternal life."

"The man who comes to me, who hears my words and puts them to use is like a wise man who built his house on rock."

"If you continue in my teaching you are truly my disciple then you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

"If the son frees you, you shall truly be free."
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,680,203 times
Reputation: 1846
Well, yeah but...... ummmmm see those can all be explained.
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