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Old 07-19-2013, 10:36 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,205 posts, read 19,291,155 times
Reputation: 11529

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
If you would ever bother to read The Cost of Discipleship you might be in a position to know what Bonhoeffer means by cheap grace. It's cheap for those who think they have it with no expectations to live a life for God.

And if you aren't threatened by statements on this thread, you have no reason to feel accused.
Dresden, you made a blanket accusation that the nature of people who are dogmatic is not to continue seeking to grow. And that was in context, a reference to those who say that salvation is by grace through faith and that works are not involved.

The Bible directly states that works are not a part of salvation. You ignore that fact. And you can't get it through your head no matter how many times I say it, that I am not saying that the believer shouldn't have works. They just are not a requirement for salvation.

You have, on the other thread related to this subject contradicted yourself by saying both the works aren't necessary for salvation and then on the same post saying that works are necessary for salvation.



Quote:
And if you could display the honesty to reject James' writings as not meaningful to the person seeking Christ, then at least you could claim consistency. Until then, the words of James will haunt you unceasingly:


(ESV)

Here James is comparing two different types of faith: genuine faith which leads to good works, and empty faith (cheap grace) which is not faith at all. True faith is alive and backed up by works. False faith that has nothing to show for itself is dead.
James is referring to the productivity of a believer's spiritual life. He is not saying that a person cannot be eternally saved without works. He is not saying that someone who doesn't show evidence of works was never saved in the first place.


Quote:
I believe God is dealing with you, Mike. Your part in working out your salvation is calling to you. I won't respond again, because I sense you need to be a winner of words, therefore I yield to you. My prayer is that you yield to the Spirit of God and know Him beyond words.
How very judgmental of you. You have no clue what I've been saying and no desire to even make an effort to understand.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:54 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,205 posts, read 19,291,155 times
Reputation: 11529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humble_Servant View Post
I agree with you. But it depends whether or not your faith is genuine. Genuine faith results in obedience. Many Christians believe that going to church and confessing Jesus as their Lord and Savior will get them through the narrow gate. But Jesus said, "These people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me." (Matthew 15:8). Jesus also said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

If all you need is faith, why do so many Christians condemn homosexual practice? Why not let homosexual Christians practice their sin? If they have faith in Jesus, surely it doesn't matter how they live their life. However, the Bible tells us we are to keep God's commandments. If we fall short we can repent and be forgiven, but we cannot live in willful sin.

There is true faith and there is dead faith. Anybody can say they have faith in Jesus, but what good is their faith if they don't produce good fruit or keep God's commandments. A desire to obey God's commandments is a sign that your faith is genuine. The problem with focusing so much on "saved by grace through faith" is that it gives people the idea that they don't have to live a holy life because all they need is faith. But their idea of faith is often a faith that is dead, because they pick and choose what commandments to obey.

Enter by the narrow gate. Fear God and keep His commandments.
Faith is simply putting your trust in another. The 'dead' faith of which James spoke was not a non-existent faith, but a non-productive faith. James was not speaking with regard to eternal salvation. He was speaking with reference to the eternally saved believer's spiritual life. He was asking if a believer who did not put faith into action could be saved from a non-productive useless spiritual life. A believer with a non-productive spiritual life is still eternally saved.

And the purpose of this thread is to show that salvation is by grace through faith, and not as a result of works just as the Bible teaches. The Lordship salvation crowd have tried to make this about the believer's spiritual life as opposed to what results in eternal salvation which is simply faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. You are saved forever the very first moment you put your trust in Christ for your eternal salvation.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,680,203 times
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Mike, why was this doctrine of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone formulated? what is the historical background?
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:46 AM
 
4,220 posts, read 2,273,899 times
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There is a verse that Paul used many times and people use it not realizing that being faithful is having faith. The verse is translated indifferent ways but the most popular is this; "The just shall live by faith." When looking at the concordance in the Blue letter Bible It could also say ; "The righteous live faithfully." That would be faithful to God. There is a verse I recall that says; "Faithfulness has disappeared the word of God is gone from there speech." This tells me that faithfulness is speaking the word of God." Just as Jesus said genuine worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth. Truth being the word of God and the Spirit being the word of God.
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:23 AM
 
2,541 posts, read 2,169,925 times
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HEB 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." True faith, not what some call faith, is spiritual substance from God and thus the evidence is within of what truly is of God such as the His power of peace, love, joy and wisdom to be Holy, and then to live for and do those things that please God. True faith will produce good works or else the faith that one might think they have is dead.

True faith does not stand alone but is accompanied with the substance of love and hope or else it is dead faith. Faithfull is a state of being because it brings you into the presence of God. One can not be in the presence of God without that changing the whole being resulting in the doing of what is good.
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Old 07-20-2013, 02:23 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 6,274,209 times
Reputation: 4656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
<snip>

You have, on the other thread related to this subject contradicted yourself by saying both the works aren't necessary for salvation and then on the same post saying that works are necessary for salvation.

How very judgmental of you. You have no clue what I've been saying and no desire to even make an effort to understand.
I will, however, call you to task about YOUR accusation that I said in the same post that works aren't necessary and then they are. Please quote that for all our readers. I believe you may refer to post #134 of the Dead Faith = Faith Without Works thread. If so, at least point to my contradictory words--as in:

Quote:
The popularization of decisional regeneration or decisional salvation is the rage nowadays. Started by Charles Finney and popularized by Billy Graham it has become a sacramental, numbers-driven, man-exalting, God-denying, sin-allowing, repentance-rejecting, and holiness hating scheme. It is not from the mouth of Jesus.

The invitations to make a decision (and I have given a number of them myself), sounds like this---"There is nothing you can do-----all you have to do----it is so easy to be saved in the next few seconds----you can know tonight that you will never go to hell."

Rather than focus on what God did for the elect, it puts all the attention on what a sinner does when presented with the gospel, as if this is the sole (no pun) determing factor.

Sinners are not saved by good works, but they cannot lay any claim to eternal life without them.
And frankly, even if I wrote something contradictory, have you been unable to grasp that I place emphasis on the COMBINATION OF CONFESSION AND WORKS as the path of salvation. It is the Lordship view that you dismiss. Because while you claim Jesus as your Savior, you words make you appear to say your confession of Him as Savior did not include your acceptance of Him as Lord. If you did His works, then YOU would be able to understand what a dozen people have been trying to point out again and again. The two, decisional salvation AND works, are one and the same.

Do you believe that Jesus was both God and Man? Many people have trouble understanding that, but I think you do not. I have said that Jesus is (FAITH=GOD and WORKS=MAN) and the combination of the two = SALVATION, both part of the same equation.

You pointedly ignored Clear Lens on the previous thread who with quite interesting clarity pointed out with numerous historical quotes that the early church always believed that faith in Christ and repentance and works were tied together.

The gospel you now preach is an aberration from the early Christian church---and a RECENT aberration at that. I prefer to hold to the earliest beliefs of those Christians who were nearest in time to our Lord. You are welcome to chase Charles Finney.

Now you have caught me in one contradiction. I stated previously I was leaving the thread. And this time I mean it. This thread is a duplicate of Dead Faith = Faith Without Works thread and every post on here should have been over there so that new readers could see the full progression of the different opinions. I feel like there has been an attempt at religious gerry-mandering.

This post is left, so that other readers may rightly divide truth between what I REALLY said on the other thread (in quotes above), and what was so poorly interpreted by another.
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:56 AM
 
3 posts, read 2,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Faith is simply putting your trust in another. The 'dead' faith of which James spoke was not a non-existent faith, but a non-productive faith. James was not speaking with regard to eternal salvation. He was speaking with reference to the eternally saved believer's spiritual life. He was asking if a believer who did not put faith into action could be saved from a non-productive useless spiritual life. A believer with a non-productive spiritual life is still eternally saved.

And the purpose of this thread is to show that salvation is by grace through faith, and not as a result of works just as the Bible teaches. The Lordship salvation crowd have tried to make this about the believer's spiritual life as opposed to what results in eternal salvation which is simply faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. You are saved forever the very first moment you put your trust in Christ for your eternal salvation.
Again, there is genuine faith and there is dead faith. You have to figure out which faith you have. Can a homosexual have faith in Jesus and continue in willful sin and still get to heaven? Yes or no?
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:05 AM
 
Location: In a state of Grace
796 posts, read 745,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humble_Servant View Post
I do wonder sometimes whether there are atheists, Muslims, and even satanists, who pretend to be Christians, and go into churches and internet forums to cause divisions and crafty deceptions. Ever since the fall of man, Satan has been enticing people to disobey God. The reason we are all in this mess is because of disobedience. Whenever I come across a professing Christian who tries to imply or give the impression that Christians can enter heaven without keeping God's commandments, I smell a rat.

Neglecting the scriptures that talk about obedience while upholding the scriptures that talk about "saved by faith" is a very crafty deception. What these people fail to tell you is that, like I've said, there is genuine faith, and there is dead faith. I call it obedient faith--a faith that results in obedience. Adolph Hitler apparently believed in Jesus. But was his faith genuine? I'll let you decide.

So, don't be deceived when people hammer you with "saved by grace through faith," because it's talking about a genuine faith, not a dead faith. Don't let the wolves deceive you.
Of course there are! There are also people who have been deceived into believing that they have found some "higher consciousness" of God "within" and are the more correct Christians.

Satan has not really changed since the time of the garden. He begins by attacking God's word. "has God really said?" If you watch most attacks it is against what God has said or revealed to us. They teach that the bible is corrupt or of lesser value because God used men to write it.
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:10 PM
 
47,747 posts, read 30,139,631 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I did not ignore it. I stated that it is clear from scriptural references that faith is more organic than that intellectual definition. That it is not just a matter of intellectual assent, but a matter of commitment that is a part of the definition of faith as shown when James says show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith BY my works," and the inescapable conclusion is that the intent or commitment to a new way of life is an integral part of that faith. It is not merit, it is just the nature of faith. You attempt to separate what is a living thing and the result is dead faith.
Nate . . . the easy believism tickles their ears. It is so easy. All you have to do is agree to believe and accept that Christ saved us. How hard is that? They have to do nothing.and they don't have to bother with any tough things like trying to love each other daily and repent when we don't. Having to commit to anything else beyond the "belief IN" Christ is too hard and interferes with their lives too much. Having to follow the guidance of the Comforter within their consciousness (their conscience) places restrictions on their lives that are too limiting.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,680,203 times
Reputation: 1846
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nate . . . the easy believism tickles their ears. It is so easy. All you have to do is agree to believe and accept that Christ saved us. How hard is that? They have to do nothing.and they don't have to bother with any tough things like trying to love each other daily and repent when we don't. Having to commit to anything else beyond the "belief IN" Christ is too hard and interferes with their lives too much. Having to follow the guidance of the Comforter within their consciousness (their conscience) places restrictions on their lives that are too limiting.
That's really not the problem for many of the adherents of this doctrine, Mystic. Many of them actually are themselves "eager to do good works." The thing I see is that the doctrine of "faith alone in Christ alone" was a response to a very real abuse in which people were required to jump through whatever hoops and continue doing so throughout their lives. The response was entirely appropriate.....until the doctrine took on a life of it's own and the theologians began picking it apart in the same way the Jews of Jesus' day had picked apart the Sabbath Laws as an example, turning what was meant to be helpful into a travesty in its own right. For many it is not a matter of tickling ears, but of swallowing whole the nit-picking legalistic perceptions of theologians with far too much time on their hands and no real comprehension of the original spirit of the doctrine.

But thanks for the support as I try to hash that out.
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