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No. I am not. By denying that you must have faith in Christ in order to receive the free gift of eternal life you pit the Bible against itself. The same Bible which states that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus just as plainly states multiple times that one must believe on Christ in order to be eternally saved. There is no merit in faith. Man cannot take any credit for trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Putting your non-meritorious faith in the finished work of Christ precludes you from putting any faith in anything that you do. They are mutually exclusive.
UR says an Atheist is in the end saved, you say a believer that becomes an Atheist is also saved, the pope says an Atheist can also be saved. All do not believe in Christ, who only saves, do you see the contradiction? Christ is the same as yesterday. In the OT a righteous that sins is loosing his righteousness (Hes). Salvation is conditional. Read the ifs in the bible. Jesus says who endures till the end will be saved. This is conditional. To exclude the life of a believer from salvation is wrong. Not our works will save us. Works are for reward. But committing sins, if you call it works, will save us either, they will kill us spiritual, if we do not repent. There was no unconditional eternal salvation, not in the OT nor in the NT. If some one does not forgive and the proud has a problem with it, the Father will also not forgive him, what do you think this "believer" will end up? God is holy, what He said it stands for ever, the reasoning and logic of human dust is total irrelevant. Who wants justice will get it, the Lord will judge him according his works and not by grace. How believers interpret the bible will also not save them, they can be wrong. Who loves the Lord Jesus will keep His commandments.
It is obvious in the OT that there was animal sacrifice. There was a tabernacle, the various furnishings, the ark of the covenant, etc. for OT Israel. There was various temporary offerings that God put in place for his people until it was time for Christ to die. The Lord had one group of people handle Him directly - which included handling the animal sacrifices (Leviticus). They were set apart to do that. They handled the death with regards to sin until Christ died.
"A Sacrifice is an ancient expression within Religion to justify their sins."
The Book of Jonah is quite interesting, it tells us of an entire community which was condemned to destruction; but were forgiven when they simply repented without ever offering a blood sacrifice. Of course they did fast, much in line with that of prayer. FOR MY HOUSE IS A HOUSE OF PRAYER. If you cannot afford a BULL, GOAT or TWO TURTLE-DOVES for your sacrifice, bring a tenth of an ephah (several liters worth) of FINE FLOUR for YOUR SIN OFFERING; the Priest will take a handful for the offering and pocket the rest. (Leviticus 5:11-13) SOUNDS PRETTY FAMILIAR TO ME!
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You quoted Luke 10 above. Jesus still lived under the law.
He exemplified the greater aspect of the Spirit by and through that of walking in love, even to the point of his own death.
"Love does not acknowledge itself, rather it seeks out what it can do for that of others, even in the midst of pain and suffering."
There is no doubt whatsoever that Jesus bore the sins of the world (as reflected in the barbarity and savagery of our ancestors by scourging and crucifying Him) . . . but I reject that it was a penalty for anything or that God required it
Therefore your reject the gospel of our salvation. You are in direct opposition of what is clearly revealed in the Bible.
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You believe WE supplant the role of God who said HE would write in our hearts??
You take a passage which applies to the Millennial kingdom and attempt to apply it to the Church.
In the Millennium there will be universal knowledge of God. That is not true today. Today, in this dispensation of the church the believer must study the Bible under the filling ministry of the Holy Spirit who is the true Mentor.
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I have always acknowledged the Bible as inspired by God and USEFUL (profitable) for instruction . . . so what is your point?
You twist words. You do not believe what the Old Testament says about God. As I said, you reject anything in the Bible which gets in the way of your own personal belief system. You do not believe what is plainly stated in the Bible regarding the fact that Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the world and that it was God the Father's plan that He do so.
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Of course we learn from the Bible. It tells us of Christ, how to identify Him, what His status is, how to validate Him through prophesy, what He taught, etc. etc. I disregard nothing. I interpret what is there using the "mind of Christ" to lift the veil of ignorance over the OT.
You disregard plenty. You disregard the substitutionary death of Christ on the Cross in which He paid the penalty for our sins. You disregard the fact that God is shown to be triune. You disregard the fact that a person must believe on Christ to receive the free gift of eternal life, and that no one has eternal life apart from faith in Christ. And so on.... And you do not properly interpret the Bible.
And now, enough of this. No matter how much you attempt to defend your false teachings, your words are not those of one who has accepted the gospel that is revealed in the Word of God. We're done here.
I thought I was through with this thread. But at 3:00 a.m. this morning God was dealing with me and had me reading and praying--and thinking of my own faith in relationship to Him--and how James 2:14-20 applies to us all, me more than many.
The psychologist, Dr. Alfred Adler holds an interesting theory of individual psychology. When dealing with people, he says, "Trust only in movement, life happens at the level of action." He goes on to say, "We are not what we say, but we are what we do. What we do is the real key to our intentions." He has discovered what James is saying in his epistle. He has discovered that the only real revelation of a person is through that person's behavior.
To sort of paraphrase James, faith plus nothing equals----nothing. He calls it "dead faith" in verse 17, in verse 20, and again at the end of the chapter in verse 26--dead faith, not saving faith.
Now inevitably people with dead faith always substitute words for deeds. They want you to believe that they are what they say when you must understand that we are what we do. Trust not in words, trust only in movement. True faith will always be seen in works. Dead faith will not be seen at all.
There is a kind of faith that does not save. There is a kind of faith in Jesus Christ that does not save.
In Matthew for example, chapter 3, the ministry of John the Baptist draws our attention---"And many people were being baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan River confessing their sins." Verse 7, "When he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism he said to them, 'O generation of snakes, who has warned you to flee from the wrath that is to come? Bring forth therefore FRUITS fitting repentance and think not to say within yourself, we have Abraham as our father." In other words, don't count on your heritage, demonstrate by your works the legitimacy of your faith.
In chapter 5 of Matthew, verse 16, Jesus said, "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven." In other words, the light that shines out of the life of a believer is the light of good works, demonstrated deeds.
In John 2:23-25 it says this, "Now when He (being Jesus) was in Jerusalem at the Passover in the feast day, many believed in His name when they saw the miracles He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them because He knew all men and needed not that any man should testify of man for He knew what was in man."
In fact, chapter 3 follows up the same idea. "There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews." He is one of those who believed. "He came to Jesus by night and he said, Rabbi we know that You are a teacher come from God, for no man can do the miracles that You do except God be with him." Now we just saw in John 2 that people who saw his miracles believed in His name. They believed He was sent from God. They may have believed He was the Messiah And Nicodemus says "we" believe----see, it's a whole group. "Jesus answered and said, "truly, truly I say to you, unless you are born again you won't even see the Kingdom of God."
What? Nicodemus believed. He may well have believed in the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. He believed in the miracles. He believed in the name. He believed Jesus was sent from God. But Jesus said to him and to all like him, believing is not enough unless you are transformed. There is such a thing as non-saving faith.
In John chapter 8 is another graphic illustration of this very same kind of faith. Verses 30-31: "As he, (Jesus), spake these words MANY BELIEVED ON him. Then said Jesus to those Jews WHICH BELIEVED on him, 'If ye CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my disciples INDEED.'" The Greek words are "mathetes alethos," my real disciples. Verse 32: "And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."
Many people possess the kind of faith those Jews and Nicodemus had. They believe in God. They believe in Jesus Christ. But not to the point of salvation. They may believe the facts about God, the facts about Christ, but they manifest no irrevocable commitment to Jesus Christ. They manifest no changed life that comes with true salvation marked by repentance and obedience.
Hebrews 12:14 says, "Holiness without which no man shall see the Lord." No man enters into the presence of the Lord without holiness. So justification must have with it more than just a forensic statement about your position with God. It must have with it a real sanctification so that saving faith is manifest in works.
Most churches today fail to deal with the soul damning impression that a simple knowledge of the gospel is equal to acceptance of saving faith. They fail to deal with the deception and the delusion that knowing the truth equals redemption. It's almost as if people think that what you don't deny, you must believe and that that would be sufficient. James does not permit any such deception to go unchallenged. People who believe the facts of the gospel but make no irrevocable commitment to shun sin and serve the Lord Jesus Christ, which commitment is empowered in the saving work itself, must be confronted with the reality of their state. In fact, the whole of the epistle written by James is a series of tests by which you can evaluate whether your faith is a living faith or whether it is a dead faith.
(More to follow on a later post on the tests in James by which you can know if your faith is genuine.)
UR says an Atheist is in the end saved, you say a believer that becomes an Atheist is also saved, the pope says an Atheist can also be saved. All do not believe in Christ, who only saves, do you see the contradiction? Christ is the same as yesterday. In the OT a righteous that sins is loosing his righteousness (Hes). Salvation is conditional. Read the ifs in the bible. Jesus says who endures till the end will be saved. This is conditional. To exclude the life of a believer from salvation is wrong. Not our works will save us. Works are for reward. But committing sins, if you call it works, will save us either, they will kill us spiritual, if we do not repent. There was no unconditional eternal salvation, not in the OT nor in the NT. If some one does not forgive and the proud has a problem with it, the Father will also not forgive him, what do you think this "believer" will end up? God is holy, what He said it stands for ever, the reasoning and logic of human dust is total irrelevant. Who wants justice will get it, the Lord will judge him according his works and not by grace. How believers interpret the bible will also not save them, they can be wrong. Who loves the Lord Jesus will keep His commandments.
Once a person has been born into the family of God through faith in Christ, he is eternally saved and can do nothing to lose his position in Christ. All sin has been paid for on the Cross and therefore is not and cannot be an issue in salvation. God will not condemn a believer to the lake of fire for sins he commits since those sins were already paid for by Christ.
I thought I was through with this thread. But at 3:00 a.m. this morning God was dealing with me and had me reading and praying--and thinking of my own faith in relationship to Him--and how James 2:14-20 applies to us all, me more than many.
The psychologist, Dr. Alfred Adler holds an interesting theory of individual psychology. When dealing with people, he says, "Trust only in movement, life happens at the level of action." He goes on to say, "We are not what we say, but we are what we do. What we do is the real key to our intentions." He has discovered what James is saying in his epistle. He has discovered that the only real revelation of a person is through that person's behavior.
To sort of paraphrase James, faith plus nothing equals----nothing. He calls it "dead faith" in verse 17, in verse 20, and again at the end of the chapter in verse 26--dead faith, not saving faith.
Now inevitably people with dead faith always substitute words for deeds. They want you to believe that they are what they say when you must understand that we are what we do. Trust not in words, trust only in movement. True faith will always be seen in works. Dead faith will not be seen at all.
There is a kind of faith that does not save. There is a kind of faith in Jesus Christ that does not save.
In Matthew for example, chapter 3, the ministry of John the Baptist draws our attention---"And many people were being baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan River confessing their sins." Verse 7, "When he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism he said to them, 'O generation of snakes, who has warned you to flee from the wrath that is to come? Bring forth therefore FRUITS fitting repentance and think not to say within yourself, we have Abraham as our father." In other words, don't count on your heritage, demonstrate by your works the legitimacy of your faith.
In chapter 5 of Matthew, verse 16, Jesus said, "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven." In other words, the light that shines out of the life of a believer is the light of good works, demonstrated deeds.
In John 2:23-25 it says this, "Now when He (being Jesus) was in Jerusalem at the Passover in the feast day, many believed in His name when they saw the miracles He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them because He knew all men and needed not that any man should testify of man for He knew what was in man."
In fact, chapter 3 follows up the same idea. "There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews." He is one of those who believed. "He came to Jesus by night and he said, Rabbi we know that You are a teacher come from God, for no man can do the miracles that You do except God be with him." Now we just saw in John 2 that people who saw his miracles believed in His name. They believed He was sent from God. They may have believed He was the Messiah And Nicodemus says "we" believe----see, it's a whole group. "Jesus answered and said, "truly, truly I say to you, unless you are born again you won't even see the Kingdom of God."
What? Nicodemus believed. He may well have believed in the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. He believed in the miracles. He believed in the name. He believed Jesus was sent from God. But Jesus said to him and to all like him, believing is not enough unless you are transformed. There is such a thing as non-saving faith.
In John chapter 8 is another graphic illustration of this very same kind of faith. Verses 30-31: "As he, (Jesus), spake these words MANY BELIEVED ON him. Then said Jesus to those Jews WHICH BELIEVED on him, 'If ye CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my disciples INDEED.'" The Greek words are "mathetes alethos," my real disciples. Verse 32: "And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."
Many people possess the kind of faith those Jews and Nicodemus had. They believe in God. They believe in Jesus Christ. But not to the point of salvation. They may believe the facts about God, the facts about Christ, but they manifest no irrevocable commitment to Jesus Christ. They manifest no changed life that comes with true salvation marked by repentance and obedience.
Hebrews 12:14 says, "Holiness without which no man shall see the Lord." No man enters into the presence of the Lord without holiness. So justification must have with it more than just a forensic statement about your position with God. It must have with it a real sanctification so that saving faith is manifest in works.
Most churches today fail to deal with the soul damning impression that a simple knowledge of the gospel is equal to acceptance of saving faith. They fail to deal with the deception and the delusion that knowing the truth equals redemption. It's almost as if people think that what you don't deny, you must believe and that that would be sufficient. James does not permit any such deception to go unchallenged. People who believe the facts of the gospel but make no irrevocable commitment to shun sin and serve the Lord Jesus Christ, which commitment is empowered in the saving work itself, must be confronted with the reality of their state. In fact, the whole of the epistle written by James is a series of tests by which you can evaluate whether your faith is a living faith or whether it is a dead faith.
(More to follow on a later post on the tests in James by which you can know if your faith is genuine.)
More of your works based salvation arguments. You are refuted both by Jesus and by Paul. And passages have already been given over and over which show this to be true.
I thought I was through with this thread. But at 3:00 a.m. this morning God was dealing with me and had me reading and praying--and thinking of my own faith in relationship to Him--and how James 2:14-20 applies to us all, me more than many.
The psychologist, Dr. Alfred Adler holds an interesting theory of individual psychology. When dealing with people, he says, "Trust only in movement, life happens at the level of action." He goes on to say, "We are not what we say, but we are what we do. What we do is the real key to our intentions." He has discovered what James is saying in his epistle. He has discovered that the only real revelation of a person is through that person's behavior.
To sort of paraphrase James, faith plus nothing equals----nothing. He calls it "dead faith" in verse 17, in verse 20, and again at the end of the chapter in verse 26--dead faith, not saving faith.
Now inevitably people with dead faith always substitute words for deeds. They want you to believe that they are what they say when you must understand that we are what we do. Trust not in words, trust only in movement. True faith will always be seen in works. Dead faith will not be seen at all.
There is a kind of faith that does not save. There is a kind of faith in Jesus Christ that does not save.
In Matthew for example, chapter 3, the ministry of John the Baptist draws our attention---"And many people were being baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan River confessing their sins." Verse 7, "When he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism he said to them, 'O generation of snakes, who has warned you to flee from the wrath that is to come? Bring forth therefore FRUITS fitting repentance and think not to say within yourself, we have Abraham as our father." In other words, don't count on your heritage, demonstrate by your works the legitimacy of your faith.
In chapter 5 of Matthew, verse 16, Jesus said, "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven." In other words, the light that shines out of the life of a believer is the light of good works, demonstrated deeds.
In John 2:23-25 it says this, "Now when He (being Jesus) was in Jerusalem at the Passover in the feast day, many believed in His name when they saw the miracles He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them because He knew all men and needed not that any man should testify of man for He knew what was in man."
In fact, chapter 3 follows up the same idea. "There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews." He is one of those who believed. "He came to Jesus by night and he said, Rabbi we know that You are a teacher come from God, for no man can do the miracles that You do except God be with him." Now we just saw in John 2 that people who saw his miracles believed in His name. They believed He was sent from God. They may have believed He was the Messiah And Nicodemus says "we" believe----see, it's a whole group. "Jesus answered and said, "truly, truly I say to you, unless you are born again you won't even see the Kingdom of God."
What? Nicodemus believed. He may well have believed in the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. He believed in the miracles. He believed in the name. He believed Jesus was sent from God. But Jesus said to him and to all like him, believing is not enough unless you are transformed. There is such a thing as non-saving faith.
In John chapter 8 is another graphic illustration of this very same kind of faith. Verses 30-31: "As he, (Jesus), spake these words MANY BELIEVED ON him. Then said Jesus to those Jews WHICH BELIEVED on him, 'If ye CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my disciples INDEED.'" The Greek words are "mathetes alethos," my real disciples. Verse 32: "And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."
Many people possess the kind of faith those Jews and Nicodemus had. They believe in God. They believe in Jesus Christ. But not to the point of salvation. They may believe the facts about God, the facts about Christ, but they manifest no irrevocable commitment to Jesus Christ. They manifest no changed life that comes with true salvation marked by repentance and obedience.
Hebrews 12:14 says, "Holiness without which no man shall see the Lord." No man enters into the presence of the Lord without holiness. So justification must have with it more than just a forensic statement about your position with God. It must have with it a real sanctification so that saving faith is manifest in works.
Most churches today fail to deal with the soul damning impression that a simple knowledge of the gospel is equal to acceptance of saving faith. They fail to deal with the deception and the delusion that knowing the truth equals redemption. It's almost as if people think that what you don't deny, you must believe and that that would be sufficient. James does not permit any such deception to go unchallenged. People who believe the facts of the gospel but make no irrevocable commitment to shun sin and serve the Lord Jesus Christ, which commitment is empowered in the saving work itself, must be confronted with the reality of their state. In fact, the whole of the epistle written by James is a series of tests by which you can evaluate whether your faith is a living faith or whether it is a dead faith.
(More to follow on a later post on the tests in James by which you can know if your faith is genuine.)
It's good to hear something beyond that of lip service.
"A Sacrifice is an ancient expression within Religion to justify their sins."
The Book of Jonah is quite interesting, it tells us of an entire community which was condemned to destruction; but were forgiven when they simply repented without ever offering a blood sacrifice. Of course they did fast, much in line with that of prayer. FOR MY HOUSE IS A HOUSE OF PRAYER. If you cannot afford a BULL, GOAT or TWO TURTLE-DOVES for your sacrifice, bring a tenth of an ephah (several liters worth) of FINE FLOUR for YOUR SIN OFFERING; the Priest will take a handful for the offering and pocket the rest. (Leviticus 5:11-13) SOUNDS PRETTY FAMILIAR TO ME!
He exemplified the greater aspect of the Spirit by and through that of walking in love, even to the point of his own death.
"Love does not acknowledge itself, rather it seeks out what it can do for that of others, even in the midst of pain and suffering."
So much for the God haters who accuse those OT writers of not understanding the nature of God and being barbaric savages ....but were forgiven when they simply repented without ever offering a blood sacrifice.
So much for the God haters who accuse those OT writers of not understanding the nature of God and being barbaric savages ....but were forgiven when they simply repented without ever offering a blood sacrifice.
'I desire Mercy, not Sacrifice.'
Yet, they still fill their pockets on the false teachings of men.
Therefore your reject the gospel of our salvation. You are in direct opposition of what is clearly revealed in the Bible.
No I accept our salvation by Christ . . . you would have us save ourselves by our choices. Nowhere in the Bible is there any clear claim that God required Jesus to be scourged and crucified. Both He and Jesus KNEW what our ignorant savage and barbaric ancestors would do to Him because of their evil sinful ways and they allowed it. Jesus laid down His life for us because it was unavoidable once He delivered God's message of love and reconciliation . . . which the ignorant and savage religious leaders would not accept. They believed in a jealous, angry, vengeful War God who required blood sacrifices yearly to appease Him. Even those who eventually came to power AFTER the apostles retained their savage beliefs about God and interpreted Christ's sacrifice according to their barbaric blood sacrifice beliefs . . . completely corrupting Christ's original message of love and reconciliation into one of appeasement. So . . .NO . . . there is nothing clear about your corrupt understanding of the Bible.
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You take a passage which applies to the Millennial kingdom and attempt to apply it to the Church.
Millennial Kingdom schmillennial kingdom . . . that is nothing but the complicated "fancy footwork" and false rationale in the "precepts and doctrines of men" created to explain the inconsistencies in the current corruptions of Christ's original Gospel.
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In the Millennium there will be universal knowledge of God. That is not true today. Today, in this dispensation of the church the believer must study the Bible under the filling ministry of the Holy Spirit who is the true Mentor.
Dispensation schmispensation . . . since Christ abides with us as the Comforter and God has "written in our hearts" according to the New Covenant everyone DOES know God within . . . they just may not follow His inner guidance . . . conscience.
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You twist words. You do not believe what the Old Testament says about God. As I said, you reject anything in the Bible which gets in the way of your own personal belief system.
NO . . . it is NOT my personal belief system. It is Christ's!
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You do not believe what is plainly stated in the Bible regarding the fact that Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the world and that it was God the Father's plan that He do so.
You do not believe what Christ plainly stated in the Sermon on the Mount and as recorded in 1Cor 13 about agape love and its attributes. God IS agape love . . . so those ARE His attributes. Anything believed by our ignorant savage ancestors that contradicts those attributes is the result of their ignorance, period. God is not a God of confusion or of contradictions. If we would KNOW God we must know Jesus, period . . . NOT our ignorant ancestors' beliefs and superstitions about God.
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You disregard plenty. You disregard the substitutionary death of Christ on the Cross in which He paid the penalty for our sins.
That is not disregard. I do not disregard His death on the cross . . . I disagree with YOUR beliefs about it.
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You disregard the fact that God is shown to be triune.
Wrong. I do not disregard it. I explain it using our knowledge of consciousness. Our ancestors did not have that knowledge . . . so they developed some complex "mystery" about kenosis and hypostatic union and whatnot. God is Spirit. His consciousness is the Holy Spirit. Jesus brought God's consciousness to His human consciousness connecting all human consciousness with God. Simple as that.
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You disregard the fact that a person must believe on Christ to receive the free gift of eternal life, and that no one has eternal life apart from faith in Christ. And so on.... And you do not properly interpret the Bible.
I do not disregard it . . . I understand what "believe ON" actually means and its relationship to faith in Christ. You do not. We disagree about who has eternal life and you are being double-minded about it again. You believe only believers have eternal life. But If as you believe anyone is subject to eternal torment in a lake of fire . . . they would have to have eternal life for that to be possible. So our difference is NOT whether or not we ALL have eternal life. We agree that we ALL have it because of what Jesus did. We differ only in what we believe will be the KIND of eternal life we will have . . . based on whether or not we "believe ON" Jesus and what that actually means.
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And now, enough of this. No matter how much you attempt to defend your false teachings, your words are not those of one who has accepted the gospel that is revealed in the Word of God. We're done here.
No matter how much you attempt to defend YOUR false teachings . . . your words are not those of one who has accepted the Gospel as revealed by the life, teachings, and death of the ONLY Living Word of God Jesus the Christ.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-29-2013 at 01:02 PM..
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Faith or Saving Faith?
