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Old 08-13-2013, 08:34 PM
 
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In my time of posting in this forum I have noticed there are those who defend a works based approach to salvation even when presented with overwhelming scripture that says otherwise. It is clear to me that those who believe this are content and feel secure in their belief. You make it clear that it is not our works or good deeds that save us but the "works of Christ" in and through us that inevitably result in salvation. With that being said, I would like to ask a question to those of you who hold on to this belief.

How many works or 'works of Christ' does it take to save us?

Even though I have said time and time again that unbelievers are slave to a condition called sin, (not sin the verb, but sin the noun), those of you who do not believe we are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ alone still speak out against what you often call (easy salvation). Well let me just say I don't think it was an easy thing for Jesus to endure what He did on the cross and the bible says He suffered that death for us. In the book of Romans the word "sin" is mentioned 38 times as a noun. That is referring to an actual thing, not an action. Everyone that is born into this world is a slave of sin (noun). No matter how many good things you do, those good deeds can never transfer you into the (noun) righteous state. But now that Jesus has done a prison exchange for us by placing all believers in a condition called righteousness, there is still this idea amongst works based believers that there is still some work to be done. There was something left unfinished at the cross in your eyes. The problem with this thinking is that it makes Adam's sin that condemned us all have more power than the righteous act of obedience Jesus did for us at the cross. When you believe in Jesus and His finished work, He covers you with His righteousness. Nothing you do or don't do can make you any more or less righteous than Jesus has already made you. You're still living in the ways of Cain by still bringing your harvest of fruits (the works of your hands) to God. Those of us who believe in saved by grace are walking in the way of Abel, who brought the sacrifice to God and was shown favor. But like Abel who was attacked and killed for receiving his unearned, undeserved favor from God, we believers in grace salvation are being attacked and trying to be silenced by those who believe otherwise. That should tell you immediately that your belief in works are the wrong approach to God.

With that being said, it seems there are some things that need to be answered by those who do not believe in grace salvation.

What if we die before all of our sin has been "put down in our flesh" as you say?

What if we die before having the right amount of the "works of Christ" in us?

How many "works of Christ" in us and through us does it take to save a soul?

Where is there rest and security if we have unfinished business with God?
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
In my time of posting in this forum I have noticed there are those who defend a works based approach to salvation even when presented with overwhelming scripture that says otherwise. It is clear to me that those who believe this are content and feel secure in their belief. You make it clear that it is not our works or good deeds that save us but the "works of Christ" in and through us that inevitably result in salvation. With that being said, I would like to ask a question to those of you who hold on to this belief.

How many works or 'works of Christ' does it take to save us?
You really need to understand that we don't have to do anything to be saved by Christ. It is finished. Christ took care of it. We have eternal life. We need to be concerned with what kind of eternal life faces each of us. We can achieve the cover of Christ's perfection by attuning our Spirits to His love for us all. We DO that by trying to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. That will have us "playing in the same key" with Christ's perfect agape love and our imperfections won't matter. If we don't repent . . . we will have some dissonant (off-key) parts of our Spirit that will need to be refined out as dross before we can stand before God under the cover of Christ's perfection. There is nothing magical about it. We are either resonant or dissonant with Christ's agape love.
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You really need to understand that we don't have to do anything to be saved by Christ. It is finished.
The way you word your replies to me often make it sound like I am advocating works. I am not. I believe we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus alone. This thread is not directed towards universalists.
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
The way you word your replies to me often make it sound like I am advocating works. I am not. I believe we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus alone. This thread is not directed towards universalists.
OK . . . but you are still promoting the impression that our salvation is at stake depending on what we do . . . and it isn't. Our sanctification is.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
OK . . . but you are still promoting the impression that our salvation is at stake depending on what we do . . . and it isn't. Our sanctification is.
No, he's very clear that it is the finished work alone that saves us. There are many here that either believe everyone is saved (universalists) or that they have to work and add to what Jesus did, as if they had anything to offer. There is no more work for a Christian to be saved.

John 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
No, he's very clear that it is the finished work alone that saves us. There are many here that either believe everyone is saved (universalists) or that they have to work and add to what Jesus did, as if they had anything to offer. There is no more work for a Christian to be saved.

John 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Again, salvation is by Christ continuing to put down sin in your own flesh by the Good Works He does. If you believe Christ was Finished then you need to read those verses.

As I have said on these threads, we are not saved BECAUSE of Jesus but BY Jesus.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Again, salvation is by Christ continuing to put down sin in your own flesh by the Good Works He does. If you believe Christ was Finished then you need to read those verses.

As I have said on these threads, we are not saved BECAUSE of Jesus but BY Jesus.
Every verse you quote to back up your belief contradicts many others. You either believe the bible or you don't. There is no pick and choose.

Care to answer the questions I've raised in my OP?
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
Every verse you quote to back up your belief contradicts many others. You either believe the bible or you don't. There is no pick and choose.

Care to answer the questions I've raised in my OP?
Think about what you said there. You said every verse I quote contradicts many others. Think what that implies.

Faith is what saves you. Not any works. However, once you have Faith you must live by that Faith and the evidence of living in that Faith is the manifestation of Good Works. So if your not producing Good Works, your faith is then dead faith. So anyone claiming that you can CONTINUE in Faith without producing Good Works and still be under Grace is preaching a false Gospel.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
...
What if we die before all of our sin has been "put down in our flesh" as you say?
Not sure what specifically you want me to address - but eventually all will be saved. God finishes what He started.

Quote:
What if we die before having the right amount of the "works of Christ" in us?
There is not a right amount of works. I addressed that in my last post. But look at the parable of the pounds (aka talents in the book of Luke).

Quote:
How many "works of Christ" in us and through us does it take to save a soul?
Again, all will eventually be saved and there is no "how many". The matter is that if you have SAVING FAITH, it will be evidence by an abundance of life long Good Works and putting away of sinful ways.

Quote:
Where is there rest and security if we have unfinished business with God?
The rest and security is in Christ. If you have real Faith, then Christ is in charge and putting away sin and assuring your salvation.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:05 PM
 
670 posts, read 815,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
In my time of posting in this forum I have noticed there are those who defend a works based approach to salvation even when presented with overwhelming scripture that says otherwise. It is clear to me that those who believe this are content and feel secure in their belief. You make it clear that it is not our works or good deeds that save us but the "works of Christ" in and through us that inevitably result in salvation. With that being said, I would like to ask a question to those of you who hold on to this belief.

How many works or 'works of Christ' does it take to save us?
First I will start off by saying that I don't believe in the doctrine of "Original Sin." As in my Theology it was Gods intention that we fall from grace for what ever reason unbeknownst to us. If you would like I can go into detail about my "Fall of Man" beliefs and my beliefs about the "Origin of Sin" but only if you are interesting in hearing it. So we are not condemned by Adams sin, we are condemned by our own Sin, by the evil that comes from within our hearts.

Now moving onto that question. We are judged based on our deeds and the intent behind those deeds.
The Law that we must follow is not necessarily the written Law and that is not the only thing which is considered by God, for example a person could be very pious but if they are arrogant and are only being pious to escape punishment(eternal torment) then those deeds don't count as good. The Intention behind our deeds are important, we should do a good deed not to be rewarded(Eternal Life) but to simply do good. We should not do good deeds to avoid punishment but should do good for the sake of doing good. Intentions are important, as well as taking responsibility for our actions when we miss the mark and fail. We are to learn from our mistakes and take responsibility for our actions. God presents us with opportunities to do good for others and if we take those chances then we get into good standing with God. We are asked to be Merciful and in exchange God shows us Mercy, an act of mercy is a good deed. We are asked to forgive others and in exchange God is more willing to forgive us our sins, Forgiveness is a Good deed.

We are to express love for each other and God by being accepting, compassionate, and non-hypocritical. We are not to judge people based on their appearance. "Love The Lord your God with all your heart and soul." Love All Others as you Love yourself." And I add that we should love ourselves because it is mighty difficult to love any one or any thing if you hate yourself. Love is the single act which is Good, to Love, to be Loving is a choice we make, it is this single Deed, this single thing that Saves us because from it all other possible Good deeds arise. If we Love others and God we will not want to harm them and we will be more apt to avoid sin. The power of Love can transform us and make us into good people worthy of Gods Mercy and Forgiveness.
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."


Quote:
What if we die before all of our sin has been "put down in our flesh" as you say?
What exactly do you mean by this phrase I've not heard it's utterance before?

I guess you mean what if we die before where "right with God?" Is that what you meant?
If it is then I will plainly say it depends on the person.
God weighs our hearts, the good against the bad. When the scale is in the favor of the good we move onto Paradise. When the scale is in the favor of bad it depends on by how much, if we where almost completely devoid of any good, if we where "Heartless" then we are sent into a realm known as the Void where we cease to Exists but that punishment is only for the truly evil. If our bad deeds outweigh our good but we did do some good in our life we Reincarnate. Most Souls Reincarnate, some move onto Paradise, some go to the void.


Quote:
What if we die before having the right amount of the "works of Christ" in us?
The above statement covers this.

Quote:
How many "works of Christ" in us and through us does it take to save a soul?
One Work, to be Loving in Nature. To be loving toward All, even our enemies. From Love comes all other good deeds thus to chose to be Loving is the ultimate deed it is the one thing which saves our soul. This is why we should listen to Christs teachings and try our best to follow them.

Quote:
Where is there rest and security if we have unfinished business with God?
Do you think it is easy to chose to be Loving. A man could very well leave his home and abandon his children and wife when times get hard, but some men out of Love, a choice to Love stay home and they get through it.
No matter how much despair their is in your life,
No matter how much adversity you are facing,
God Loves you and his Son Loves you.

What sort of unfinished business are you asking about?

We are to confess our Sins Daily to God in private and to a trusted friend who won't belittle us.
God often times Forgives us if we just Confess openly that we have made a mistake, the feeling of relief that washes over you when your sin is off your chest and in the open can only be the Spirit of God.
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