Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What is the point of love if not to do good deeds? Are they not immensely related to each other?
Azrael, I've been thinking about your question. I think I understand why you're asking, now. You said in your op that God "will forgive even those who disbelieve if their good deeds outweigh their bad" and that "it is by our choice to do good that we are saved and not by faith".
As I see it, Azrael, doing good deeds (loving others) is not something that God rewards by not punishing us, but rather it is the reward, itself. The consequences of not loving each other are punishment enough. God doesn't need to (nor desire to) punish us further.
As I see it, it's from not loving each other, and the consequences of that, that God desires to save us.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus said just prior to ^^^ in John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
The reason God does not hold the sins of the believer against them is John 3:16.
Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
1 Corinthians 1:23
... we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles
Romans 5:9
... we have now been justified by his blood,...
Reject \ not believe John 3:16 and God will declare the unbeliever a liar ... furthermore the unbeliever will be declared a liar when they arrogantly think that God will not perish those who do not believe;
as Jesus said: "whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them"
Think about it Twin. I'm saying that I don't believe God is holding my sins against me ... I trust that. And you, a Christian who is supposedly charged with sharing God's good news that God isn't holding our sins against us, tell me I'm wrong; God is actually holding my sins against me because I don't believe the right things about WHY God isn't holding my sins against me.
I guess that would be the case as the basis is a perception of the nature of God, though it is fairly well grounded in what Jesus taught about that nature. Frankly, unless we are convinced of that nature nothing of that teaching makes real sense, and when we are nothing else does.
Concisely stated, nate!The over-arching CONTEXT for reading the Bible is the TRUE NATURE of God and THAT is what was revealed unambiguously by Jesus . . . NOT our ignorant ancestors' superstitious and savage beliefs about Jehovah (YHWH). When we use the true nature of "God IS Love" as the context Christ's teachings, life and death make sense. When we do NOT . . . nothing makes sense. Jesus had complete faith in our Father and His example proves it. His faith saved us all because of what He achieved by His perfect agape love for us all . . . including His torturers and murderers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
And is "belief" an intellectual perception? Or is it something that permeates your life without the necessity for an intellectual perception?
Belief is not an intellectual acceptance . . . it is an inner acceptance driving our lives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
When you don't believe something you dismiss it as untrue. That's much different than rejecting God, which implies that one does believe God exists, but doesn't want anything to do with God. And further, there's a difference between rejecting various beliefs about God and actually rejecting God.
Excellent distinctions, Pleroo. Too many here think that rejecting THEIR beliefs ABOUT God is rejecting God.
Quote:
Further, a god that would be offended by or would punish people for not believing in it, would mean god is like a petulant child demanding attention. That's hardly a god worth trusting. Belief can only matter for 2 reasons: that God desires a relationship with us, and/or that belief in God is beneficial to us.
Ultimately it is how belief affects your life that matters . . . NOT what the beliefs ARE. If they lead to active "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't . . . they are of God. Anyone who loves is born of God (conceived by the Holy Spirit/Comforter of Christ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
And the Faith of Christ was in the Father, who raised him from the dead.
Absolutely. I just love your succinct aphorisms, Jerwade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
I believe that Jesus' life shows that God is our Father who loves us, is not holding our sins against us, and can be trusted. Further, Jesus' life (and how he faced death) was an example of what having faith in the Father's love and goodness looks like. That's what I believe about Jesus in a nutshell. Beyond that, I'm still working things through.
Ding! Ding! Ding!You seem to have worked things out perfectly, Pleroo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
"Love is the greatest virtue, it's free from bias or any injustice."
Amen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Yes, that is what I, personally, take away from the bible accounts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Azrael, I've been thinking about your question. I think I understand why you're asking, now. You said in your op that God "will forgive even those who disbelieve if their good deeds outweigh their bad" and that "it is by our choice to do good that we are saved and not by faith".
As I see it, Azrael, doing good deeds (loving others) is not something that God rewards by not punishing us, but rather it is the reward, itself. The consequences of not loving each other are punishment enough. God doesn't need to (nor desire to) punish us further.
As I see it, it's from not loving each other, and the consequences of that, that God desires to save us.
See what I mean?
"The Holy Spirit is strong in this one"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Think about it Twin. I'm saying that I don't believe God is holding my sins against me ... I trust that. And you, a Christian who is supposedly charged with sharing God's good news that God isn't holding our sins against us, tell me I'm wrong; God IS actually holding my sins against me because I don't believe the right things about WHY God isn't holding my sins against me. Does that make sense to you?
You are on a roll, Pleroo. Having the wrong context about the true nature of God is what produces these ridiculous contradictions.
Think about it Twin. I'm saying that I don't believe God is holding my sins against me ... I trust that. And you, a Christian who is supposedly charged with sharing God's good news that God isn't holding our sins against us, tell me I'm wrong; God is actually holding my sins against me because I don't believe the right things about WHY God isn't holding my sins against me.
Does that make sense to you?
Yes it makes perfect sense.
A) you say: I do not believe that Jesus "died for my sins".
B) God says: people who do not believe the message of the cross, do so because they are perishing and it's a stumbling block to them.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
A) you say: I do not believe that Jesus "died for my sins".
B) God says: people who do not believe the message of the cross, do so because they are perishing and it's a stumbling block to them.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
So now your saying that your God actually causes people to fail and confuses them because they don't believe?
What happened to the Sheppard leaving the flock to go after the one lost lamb?
I thought Jesus came for the Sinners not the Righteous?
I thought he wasn't an author of confusion?
And if people are doing there best to do good why would your god punish them? Is he that evil that he would punish those who repent of their sins?
Not believing is our downfall in life( living a life without the knowledge that God is our ever present help in time of need and trouble), and the very cause of us missing the mark. Sadly the bible fundamentalist have taken sin and magnified it, whereas Jesus came to magnify the Father and the way back to him. The Way of Jesus lifts us up to heavenly places and into faith, the way of the bible fundamentalist keeps us beaten down and condemned by their magnification of sin, is it any wonder most of Christendom confesses I'm just a poor miserable sinner.
So now your saying that your God actually causes people to fail and confuses them because they don't believe?
Genesis 11:7-9
"Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other....
... That is why it was called Babel—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole
world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.”
Psalm 55:9
Lord, confuse the wicked, confound their words, for I see violence and strife in the city.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
and what is the "reason" for God sending them a "powerful delusion"... it's when people first reject the truth
Psalm 4:2 How long will you people turn my glory into shame?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?
Psalm 119:118
You reject all who stray from your decrees, for their delusions come to nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael17
What happened to the Sheppard leaving the flock to go after the one lost lamb?
I thought Jesus came for the Sinners not the Righteous?
I thought he wasn't an author of confusion?
People who reject God have nothing else other than delusions... so says God.
If there was even a hint from anything you've said previously that has indicated that your questions were from a spirit other than mocking taunt, I would bother to answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael17
And if people are doing there best to do good why would your god punish them? Is he that evil that he would punish those who repent of their sins?
It does not go un-noticed that you've purposefully used the small "g".
Your mocking and taunting will be accounted for by nobody else but yourself.
Psalm 94:3
How long, Lord, will the wicked, how long will the wicked be jubilant?
Proverbs 1:22 “How long will you who are simple love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?"
Moderator cut: Attack of other member.
Last edited by june 7th; 08-27-2013 at 07:46 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
