Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Mike555, I don't have time right now for an in depth response. Let this suffice: I do believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I believe that they are one Eternal God without end. What I mean when I say that is just slightly different than what you mean when you say it.
There are three persons. We seem to agree there. We agree that they are cut from the same cloth. To illustrate:
All three are exactly alike in ever way that really matters, just like this cloth. Same pattern, same age, same consistency. One type of cloth. The same type of cloth. The persons of the Godhood are the same. One type of person/being with no difference in any personality characteristic. They are the same. They are united and their infinite unity sets the ultimate example for Christendom. The correct rendering of the Hebrew noun for God slightly rewrites my above statement: I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. I believe that they are one Eternal Gods without end. Every instance of the word God in the Bible should be read with the singular plural Elohim in mind or else you're missing something critically important.
Where we will have to agree to disagree: The formalized Trinity doctrine goes a step further without any Biblical basis or authority and says that they aren't just cut from the same cloth, but that they are the same exact piece of fabric. The Nicene Trinity's "one substance" mystery. If it were so critically important to comprehend Father, Son and Holy Ghost as "one substance" then I do believe Christ and his apostles would have said so in very clear terms. The only support that the Bible offers is hints, allegations and things left unsaid but supposedly implied "if you're reading it right." In other words, it is not supported at all and is no more absolute and irrefutable than the JW's notion that only 144,000 people are going to heaven or the Catholic claim that Peter was the first Pope and invested his authority to the see of Rome.
Jesus Himself said the Father and himself are One - as well as all believers.
John 17:20-23 - "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
Yes. In fact, believers are also Jesus Christ. Saul was persecuting the church, but the voice he heard told him, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest."
When you go to heaven were there is no shadows because God is everywhere in His eternal light , and you come to see Father God , you may not see His face , but you may see part of Him in His essence ...... When you approach Father God were He is staying you will be on the floor on your knees, as there is no way to approach Father God but on your knees ...... Jesus will be right inside Father God were Jesus abides , and Father God never leaves His eyes off Jesus for one moment..... Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of God is in the earth for the season of the promise , but is still very part of Father God with Jesus as one , as every anointed believer has the essence of Father Son and Holy Spirit in God Omni presence ..............See people hears this with the logic of the physical understanding , and be confused as the vision of the spirit is not the logic of the physical , but the Spirit through God does have real substance
Mike555, I don't have time right now for an in depth response. Let this suffice: I do believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I believe that they are one Eternal God without end. What I mean when I say that is just slightly different than what you mean when you say it.
There are three persons. We seem to agree there. We agree that they are cut from the same cloth. To illustrate:
All three are exactly alike in ever way that really matters, just like this cloth. Same pattern, same age, same consistency. One type of cloth. The same type of cloth. The persons of the Godhood are the same. One type of person/being with no difference in any personality characteristic. They are the same. They are united and their infinite unity sets the ultimate example for Christendom. The correct rendering of the Hebrew noun for God slightly rewrites my above statement: I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. I believe that they are one Eternal Gods without end. Every instance of the word God in the Bible should be read with the singular plural Elohim in mind or else you're missing something critically important.
Where we will have to agree to disagree: The formalized Trinity doctrine goes a step further without any Biblical basis or authority and says that they aren't just cut from the same cloth, but that they are the same exact piece of fabric. The Nicene Trinity's "one substance" mystery. If it were so critically important to comprehend Father, Son and Holy Ghost as "one substance" then I do believe Christ and his apostles would have said so in very clear terms. The only support that the Bible offers is hints, allegations and things left unsaid but supposedly implied "if you're reading it right." In other words, it is not supported at all and is no more absolute and irrefutable than the JW's notion that only 144,000 people are going to heaven or the Catholic claim that Peter was the first Pope and invested his authority to the see of Rome.
The issue is not whether you comprehend that the Persons of the Trinity are of the same substance, but that they ARE of one substance or essence. God is One. That refers to the attributes which comprise His substance or nature. As already stated, there is Scriptural attestation to the fact that each of the three Persons of the Trinity have the same attributes, and therefore have identical essence. To put it another way, God has one essence! In their essence the Persons of the Trinity are absolutely the same. They are of the same substance. God's substance or essence is what unites the three Persons as One God.
The issue is not whether you comprehend that the Persons of the Trinity are of the same substance, but that they ARE of one substance or essence. God is One. That refers to the attributes which comprise His substance or nature. As already stated, there is Scriptural attestation to the fact that each of the three Persons of the Trinity have the same attributes, and therefore have identical essence. To put it another way, God has one essence! In their essence the Persons of the Trinity are absolutely the same. They are of the same substance. God's substance or essence is what unites the three Persons as One God.
I have my doubts about the absolute validity of Sola Scriptura, but in this case I'd settle for it. Can you show me the passage that says that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one substance. Not similar in substance. Not identical in substance. But the same substance. I do not claim to know everything but I've yet to find such a passage in the Bible.
The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit and each having the status of God is self evident from the scriptures IMHO. But "one substance" is something I simply cannot find.
The issue is not whether you comprehend that the Persons of the Trinity are of the same substance, but that they ARE of one substance or essence. God is One. That refers to the attributes which comprise His substance or nature. As already stated, there is Scriptural attestation to the fact that each of the three Persons of the Trinity have the same attributes, and therefore have identical essence. To put it another way, God has one essence! In their essence the Persons of the Trinity are absolutely the same. They are of the same substance. God's substance or essence is what unites the three Persons as One God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
I have my doubts about the absolute validity of Sola Scriptura, but in this case I'd settle for it. Can you show me the passage that says that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one substance. Not similar in substance. Not identical in substance. But the same substance. I do not claim to know everything but I've yet to find such a passage in the Bible.
The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit and each having the status of God is self evident from the scriptures IMHO. But "one substance" is something I simply cannot find.
I can't help but wonder if the crux of the problem is simply the use of the words "essence" and "substance." I have yet to hear a definition of either of these two words that truly makes sense. To me, and I am willing to grant that it may be because of my religious background, water is a substance; air is another substance; fire is a substance; jello is a substance; polyester is a substance. If God the Father is "spirit" (and nothing more), and if Jesus Christ had a corporeal body, then they would not be the same substance at all. For starters, one would be corporeal and the other non-corporeal. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the word "substance," but I have sincerely tried to get from someone a definition I can get my head around that does not actually contradict what I read in the Bible about a Father heard speaking from Heaven about a Son who has just come up out of the waters of baptism.
If, when people use the words "essence" and "substance," they are simply referring to God's divine attributes (His love, compassion, justice, power, etc.), then I could probably agree that the three persons of the Godhead are the same substance. That's not what I am getting out of conversations on the subject with Trinitarians, though.
I have my doubts about the absolute validity of Sola Scriptura, but in this case I'd settle for it. Can you show me the passage that says that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one substance. Not similar in substance. Not identical in substance. But the same substance. I do not claim to know everything but I've yet to find such a passage in the Bible.
The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit and each having the status of God is self evident from the scriptures IMHO. But "one substance" is something I simply cannot find.
Why do you ask me this when you already made this request in post #6?
''But please direct me to the Biblical passage that actually says, "the three Persons of the Trinity are one in their essence, nature, or substance."
Why do you ask me this when you already made this request in post #6?
''But please direct me to the Biblical passage that actually says, "the three Persons of the Trinity are one in their essence, nature, or substance."
And which I answered in post #8.
Because your post#8 was an epic fail, Mike. It produced theological mumbo jumbo, inferences and obfuscation . . . when what was aked for was scripture validating the theological assertions. You do know there is a difference, right?
Because your post#8 was an epic fail, Mike. It produced theological mumbo jumbo, inferences and obfuscation . . . when what was aked for was scripture validating the theological assertions. You do know there is a difference, right?
Actually, post #8 answered him quite nicely.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
