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I think the appropriate term is "use." Like all such accommodations between religious and civil authorities, neither one remains what it was. Unfortunately the old axiom about power corrupting is true. The Protestant revolution was the best thing that ever happened to the Roman Church.
Agree! Power corrupts and the rcc was a huge dominant force during those days. The reformation helped the RCC a great deal. But, now the protestants have been reformed as well with the birth of many additional denominations
There is no Satan within the realm of a true omnipotent God that permeates the entire universe. Satan is illogical. To believe in Satan is to diminish God.
To assume man sprinkled independently from other species is illogical. I will explain later!
I acknowledge the existence of Satan and the demonic fallen angels. In fact, denial of them can be a dangerous business.
I'm reading this book below now. This young boy that was pagan, illiterate, never went to school (not even grade school, not even the 1st grade) asked Jesus about Satan. Before one dismiss this young boy they might read up on him. The Church thoroughly investigated him theologically and scientifically through the use of a hand picked medical team as well as an independent medical team.
Provided the gift of tongue while preaching in the Congo he began understanding words in foreign languages in a day, and within a week speaking the whole language fluently.
Christ told him that while out on his missions if there were things he needed to understand to go to the Church leaders they will help him. He also repeatedly instructed him that he and other should believe in the Bible.
I'm almost finished with the book. But I'm at a part where he is in the former Zaire (Congo) and huge crowds gather to listen to him, and many sing praise to parts of his message, but become highly offended and outraged at part of his message. That part being Jesus condemnation of polygamy.
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pp. 193-
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At about that time, Jesus appeared to me and gave me a new message to deliver. The message was about polygamy.
Jesus told me I must remind people that polygamy is against God's will. It was a difficult message to deliver. Polygamy--when a man has two or more wives--is widely practiced and accepted in Zaire. Men often have as many as ten wives, even more. The accepts and supports polygamy, and I was surprised to meet many churchgoing people who practice it--people who otherwise had good hearts and did good deeds, but who lived in polygamous relationships. Jesus told me that these people were setting a very bad and dangerous example for younger folks who belonged to the church and looked up to their elders for guidance. He said there are no exceptions when it comes to polygamy and that people who worshipped him in church should know better than to commit such an obvious sin.
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Shortly after I arrived in Lubumbashi, Jesus appeared to me again and said, Remind people who have two wives that they kill my commandments, and that they are thieves.
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When they asked, "Why does Jesus think that people who have two wives are like killers and thieves? That's not a nice thing to say to us!" I always answered, "Jesus said to me that the second wife is a murderer because she's killing the peace and joy the first wife has in her heart for her husband. The first wife marriage is sacred; it is blessed by the sacrament of marriage celebrated in the first (and only legitimate) marriage.
"And Jesus said the second wife is a thief because she is stealing the love that the husband should only be giving the first wife. The husband's marital love belongs to the first wife, and anyone who steals that love away from her is a thief.
"Jesus says that the man in the relationship is a thief and a murderer like every other murderer and thief... He will be judged as a thief as well, if he does not repent and let go of his sin."
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These statements enraged everyone in the audience who supported polygamy. And surprisingly to me, the people who were most outraged by the message were the women! Forty or fifty angry women confronted me one evening after I'd finished speaking at a church hall in Lubumbashi.
"How can you say those things!" one of them shouted. "Most of the men in my village were killed during war, and now there's a big shortage of men... What is wrong with several different women sharing a husband? It's better to share a husband than to never have a husband! Or is it God wants us all to be nuns?"
The last part reminds me of contemporary Black-American women that have been interviewed in black magazines like Ebony, stating there are few to no "good men" among black males and they prefer to share one rich man with several women than be the one and only of some blue collar working black man.
I've had angry American male and female feminists pontificate to me the holy and beautiful wisdom in this attitude and/or practice of Black-American wisdom. And per the values of our modern culture no one is supposed to contradict an angry woman.
At any rate... I think it is worth noting that this young Rwandan, Segatashya, was persecuted in small ways by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in Burundi and in the Congo as well. A Bishop in some town in Burundi (the Church was being violently persecuted in Burundi at the time by the government), that Jesus told Segatashya to meet and deliver his message to, kicked him out his church residence, told him he is not welcomed, and shouted at him he is calling the authorities on him and will see to it he is thrown in jail.
In the Congo the Bishops originally forbade him from speaking on Church property.
The ones that originally came out to enthusiastically support him were the Evangelical Protestants (outside of Rwanda--the Bishops of the Catholic Church in Rwanda supported him).
But you saw a similar thing in the United States and Europe with Mel Gibson's movie The Passion. It was not lay Catholics who supported Gibson. It was Evangelical Protestants that enthusiastically supported Gibson and spread news of his movie.
As a rule of thumb... modern lay Catholics are more concerned with being liked by both the indifferent and the enemies of Jesus, and are more concerned with trying to look "modern" and "smart" in large part because atheists have the intellectual pride of Satan and like to boast about how smart or intelligent they are. Personally, I find most of them are as dumb as a bag of rocks.
Jesus told this Rwanda boy that Satan exists. That Satan does not like suffering alone, despises God's love for man, and seeks to lead as many humans into sin so they are eternally damned to hell as he can.
With the stakes so high... I do not find it cute to deny the existence of such a long standing enemy of man. Eternity is more than 20 years, 100 years, 1,000,000 years, or 20 billion years. Eternity--in either heaven or hell--is something I can not fathom. The stakes are high.
I acknowledge the existence of Satan and the demonic fallen angels. In fact, denial of them can be a dangerous business.
I also acknowledge Satan as the symbol of evil within MAN. Please note i used the term "symbol of evil". Put that into the Bible and nothing changes.
I assume God is everything and nothing that could interfere with God. To believe in this other being that is lurking behind our backs is highly illogical and brings God down to the level of competition. God does not compete! when MAN does bad MAN does bad because of his own free will and his own choosing of evil. There is no such thing as the devil made me do it.
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I'm reading this book below now. This young boy that was pagan, illiterate, never went to school (not even grade school, not even the 1st grade) asked Jesus about Satan. Before one dismiss this young boy they might read up on him. The Church thoroughly investigated him theologically and scientifically through the use of a hand picked medical team as well as an independent medical team.
Provided the gift of tongue while preaching in the Congo he began understanding words in foreign languages in a day, and within a week speaking the whole language fluently.
Christ told him that while out on his missions if there were things he needed to understand to go to the Church leaders they will help him. He also repeatedly instructed him that he and other should believe in the Bible.
I'm almost finished with the book. But I'm at a part where he is in the former Zaire (Congo) and huge crowds gather to listen to him, and many sing praise to parts of his message, but become highly offended and outraged at part of his message. That part being Jesus condemnation of polygamy.
The book speaks to the choir and that is fine. I wish I had a mystic experience like that, but I have not. Nevertheless, i will agree that there are things I do not understand and may not believe until I have verification. But, in the end it does not matter. I don't need verification to feel the way I do about God. It does not really matter if I am right or wrong about God. None of us can know God. But, I would assume God knows me. If God knows me I have nothing to worry about.
One can believe whatever one wants, its sort of a free country yet, its just when one is mixing up things, one might want to keep it all straight and not confuse categories, or perhaps not, given the modern desire to be schizophrenic and run it all together. The issue in protestantism is its doctrine (which it seems intent on getting rid of) and just like science, it carries this rational endeavor across time. What the laity do and how they behave is something else. Protestantism, like the rest of religion, from the sociological perspective (and this is the category for "being" in Adam and Christ, and 'being" is an essential concept for this) is a communication system, it stays related to its past with the development of its communications. Its a closed system, like all social systems, and its doctrine does not like interpenetration from other systems.
I am quite certain most religions seek purity and do not embrace hesitation. It is clearly counter intuitive to be ambivalent or as you say schizophrenic. And I agree because they are the system and they must tow the line. However, I don't have an official role in the church and my views are mine and only mine. I am fully capable of enjoying Sunday worship and then having brunch. I don't need the purity that is preached by those in charge. I don't need the purity that Sola Sriptura folks demand. An allegoric Bible or no Bible at all is fine with me because in the end I do not know the entire nature of God.
I also acknowledge Satan as the symbol of evil within MAN. Please note i used the term "symbol of evil". Put that into the Bible and nothing changes.
I assume God is everything and nothing that could interfere with God. To believe in this other being that is lurking behind our backs is highly illogical and brings God down to the level of competition. God does not compete! when MAN does bad MAN does bad because of his own free will and his own choosing of evil. There is no such thing as the devil made me do it.
The book speaks to the choir and that is fine. I wish I had a mystic experience like that, but I have not. Nevertheless, i will agree that there are things I do not understand and may not believe until I have verification. But, in the end it does not matter. I don't need verification to feel the way I do about God. It does not really matter if I am right or wrong about God. None of us can know God. But, I would assume God knows me. If God knows me I have nothing to worry about.
I would think modern neuroscience subscribes to a vague conception of "the devil made me do it," since it's in vogue in neuroscience to propose free will is an illusion.
Christianity subscribes to the concept that devil does not make anyone do anything--short of possession, but even that requires some level of consent--and that humans are endowed with free will.
Satan tempts.
And Satan was an angel in heaven. You don't believe in angels?
Christianity does not just propose Satan exists but that other fallen angels exist as well. They can oppress people too. Many people probably suffer from demonic oppression on one level or another. I do, as I've been told be a priest with gifts from the Holy Spirit, and I know I do anyways. I wasn't really aware of this about myself in the past.
One can be freed from oppression though.
Oppression is more or less intensive temptation and invasive thoughts.
This is a matter of faith and belief but for myself I know demonic spirits exists. On one particular night in bed I felt the presence of one. It's in part due to the wickedness of my life. For a while after ward I was not sure if I had just imagined something that night, if I manufactured the feeling and thought in my head so to speak.
I was in great fear in the bed with the covers over my head as it was an intensity of hatred for me like nothing I have ever experienced. I don't think a human can hate that intensely--as what I felt directed at me. I mean that literally. I don't think for all their intense hatred that a KKK member, Nazi, or even a serial killer can hate to that level of intensity. It has to be experienced to understand.
Satan and the demonic are not something I dismiss and I try to avoid "playing around" with that world by use of ouija boards etc.
As for Segatashya... he said Jesus told him that Satan was thrown out of heaven before the world was ever created. Genesis acknowledges his existence and so does Jesus in the New Testament. The New Testament claims Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert. But I suppose one can argue those are allegorical--mention of Satan and Satan's temptations.
Segatashya also said that Jesus told him Satan will becoming soon, and carrying out miracles and cures, and will claim to solve the worlds problems. He will boast and welcome being regarded as Christ.
Jesus said when he cures people he comes quietly and not to great fan fare. Segatashya said that Jesus said if any person comes boasting and performing miracles to not follow them or believe them. They are the demonic.
But many or most persons on earth are going to follow Satan when he comes.
In some respects I think the lack of faith today is part of that fulfillment as way to pave the path for the arrival of Satan or anti-Christ.
Reading this book about Segatashya put some fear in me I must admit. It's sparked some return of faith in me. My faith is still weak. But this book really shot some fear in me to return to the protective teachings of Holy Mother Church. If nothing else it's made me fearful of just totally dismissing them entirely.
I really can't fathom eternity. I think I can in a certain way but then I catch myself and realize I can't fathom it. And the difference between eternity in hell and eternity in heaven is great.
I don't know if this Protestant actually went to hell or not in a vision. He could be a charlatan. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Also, what he says he saw and felt... closely if not totally matches that of many others that say they were given vision of hell. Including St. Faustina.
Perhaps in some ways I was fortunate to feel the presence of the evil spirit I could not see but thoroughly felt and was cognizant of its presence like I am of people sitting in a room with me. It helped make me aware of another reality, although, I will admit I doubted myself and what I felt days, weeks, months, and years after that. I knew what I felt and had sense, but somehow I was unsure afterwards I actually sensed what I sensed.
I would think modern neuroscience subscribes to a vague conception of "the devil made me do it," since it's in vogue in neuroscience to propose free will is an illusion.
Christianity subscribes to the concept that devil does not make anyone do anything--short of possession, but even that requires some level of consent--and that humans are endowed with free will.
Satan tempts.
And Satan was an angel in heaven. You don't believe in angels?
Christianity does not just propose Satan exists but that other fallen angels exist as well. They can oppress people too. Many people probably suffer from demonic oppression on one level or another. I do, as I've been told be a priest with gifts from the Holy Spirit, and I know I do anyways. I wasn't really aware of this about myself in the past.
One can be freed from oppression though.
Oppression is more or less intensive temptation and invasive thoughts.
This is a matter of faith and belief but for myself I know demonic spirits exists. On one particular night in bed I felt the presence of one. It's in part due to the wickedness of my life. For a while after ward I was not sure if I had just imagined something that night, if I manufactured the feeling and thought in my head so to speak.
I never experienced mysticism of any kind. So I have no personal experience to offer with regards to feeling the presence of God or Satan. So, all I have is the personal statements of others with regards to visions.
Saint Theresa is probably the best well known mystic and wrote about it:
What can I do if I don't experience anything? Years ago I actually went to a pentecostal church in the Caribbean and most parishioners around me seemed to be possesed. The minister kept repeating a phrase about the potency of the NT over and over again. I wish i could feel something, but I did not. I was skeptical about the fact that nearly 100% of parishioners were in a communal trance. What I like about the Catholic Church is that no one goes into a trance. Maybe I block the path to this sensation.
Regarding Satan:
Any religion needs a foe. Satan becomes a magnificent preaching tool to spread the word of God. Some take this to an extreme and see Satan everywhere. Others even see Satan in the RCC.
I looked at the official view of the RCC on Satan. They say Satan is real and a fallen Angel. They verify, Satan is lurking. However, i have discuss this issue 'off the record" with many priests that pretty much agree with me, but nevertheless tow the line of the Church because the RCC is all about tradition.
I say this again: If we assume Satan is just the symbol of evil the teachings of the Bible do not change at all.
I don't know that I would refer to my experience of feeling that evil presence "mystical."
I don't want to go into my background and dilemma but many people from my background have experienced the same or similar thing. There seems to be a door that is opened to evil spirits in this background.
At any rate... mystics are real but I do not qualify as one.
About my last year in high school I studied Ninpo or what is more popularly known as Ninjitsu. One part of daily training was moving out of the way of the bamboo sword swung down at you from behind. Inevitably you get repeatedly popped in the head. Eventually, you begin to move out of the way, aware of when it is swung down without seeing it.
As you advance over the years you move to the wooden swords until finally and eventually you are moving out of the way of the steal sword swung down over you as you are kneeling with your eyes closed.
In Ninjitsu it is believed all human have a 6th sense like other animals but that we've lost the use of it through our civilizations with distractions and conveniences.
I think the sensing of evil presence can be like this. Whether it is sensing an evil in a person (like a serial killer) or an actual evil fallen angel in a room you may be alone in.
Aside from that I've had a few other experiences one might regard as "mystical." But the important thing to note is they were only a few. Maybe countable on one hand. Not many especially in the context of how many days and minutes I've lived on planet earth.
So, having said that, I thought for a long time that God must have either not cared for me or just didn't think about me. This dejection was only intensified by seeing people (mainly women) falling from being touched on the head by a priest with gifts from the Holy Spirit. And the fact it seemed like God was silent and never answered my prayers.
But a few things eventually happened--all of which came when I did not expect them at all. I was pretty certain I was a nobody that God did not care enough about to think about let alone communicate with.
One of those experiences was almost being knocked unconscious by the very gentle touch of a priest with several gifts from the Holy Spirit. This was in a room where we were alone. I was sitting, so, it's the only reason I did not fall down. And could "hear" I guess you could say, the actually pulsating whooshing sound that traveled up my arm. This was the same priest that told me I was oppressed by several demons. When I asked him if he meant figuratively or literally he said literally. He also alluded to something about me that no living person on earth knew.
That was one but not the only experience. But as I said they were only a few experiences.
Though, fear of Satan and of demons are not so important. Much more important is trust and faith in God. That can diminish any fear of Satan and demons. Ultimately God triumphs over them.
But I don't think it's a wise thing to dismiss the objectives of these fallen angels in a sense that we totally underestimate them. They are the enemy of man since the beginning. They are better anthropologists and psychologists in this sense than we are.
As for your point about priests... as I've stated before, apostasy is wide spread in the Catholic priesthood and Catholic laity today.
Confidence and letting the chips fall as they may are good attitudes in a sense. But equally good is balancing Type 1 and Type 2 errors. New Orleans would have paid a smaller prices making an error in judgment that the levees would not hold, than making an error in judgement the levees would hold when in fact they would not.
The smaller price to pay in error is to believe or assume that Satan and fallen angels exist when actually the don't.
The greater price to pay in error is to believe or assume Satan and fallen angels don't exist when actually they do.
Same thing going for purgatory and damnation in hell with respects to "works" and penance. Those that proclaim "once saved always saved" play a high priced game of gambling--similar to New Orleans assuming the levees will hold.
There seems to be a door that is opened to evil spirits in this background.
Some cultures are more receptive than others.
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In Ninjitsu it is believed all human have a 6th sense like other animals but that we've lost the use of it through our civilizations with distractions and conveniences.
I think the sensing of evil presence can be like this. Whether it is sensing an evil in a person (like a serial killer) or an actual evil fallen angel in a room you may be alone in.
I am not certain this qualifies as making contact with God or Satan. And as I said before, it does not make sense to have Satan in a position similar to God.
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So, having said that, I thought for a long time that God must have either not cared for me or just didn't think about me. This dejection was only intensified by seeing people (mainly women) falling from being touched on the head by a priest with gifts from the Holy Spirit. And the fact it seemed like God was silent and never answered my prayers.
OK,you have a yearning I don't have. I do not need God to recognize me or favor me in any shape or form. I never considered that point. Could it be that wanting that sort of thing makes you more receptive? The best analogy I see is the desire by some women to be validated and loved. This desire to be loved causes these women to fall in love very hard. The love becomes an addiction. OTOH, women that do not seek love or validation do not fall in love like that.
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One of those experiences was almost being knocked unconscious by the very gentle touch of a priest with several gifts from the Holy Spirit. This was in a room where we were alone. I was sitting, so, it's the only reason I did not fall down. And could "hear" I guess you could say, the actually pulsating whooshing sound that traveled up my arm. This was the same priest that told me I was oppressed by several demons. When I asked him if he meant figuratively or literally he said literally. He also alluded to something about me that no living person on earth knew.
As I said: I hear about these things, but never experience anything like that. How do you know your senses are not fooling you?
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Though, fear of Satan and of demons are not so important. Much more important is trust and faith in God. That can diminish any fear of Satan and demons. Ultimately God triumphs over them.
Why do you set up a competition? God is not supposed to compete with Satan for your devotion. This makes God less powerful and God has to be all mighty. From a metaphysical sense there is no room for Satan; God is everything.
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But I don't think it's a wise thing to dismiss the objectives of these fallen angels in a sense that we totally underestimate them. They are the enemy of man since the beginning. They are better anthropologists and psychologists in this sense than we are.
As I said before: Satan is the symbol of evil within us. There is no creature!
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As for your point about priests... as I've stated before, apostasy is wide spread in the Catholic priesthood and Catholic laity today.
Same thing: Nothing changes if one uses logic. One can enjoy the fruits of religion without having the blind faith.
"You be careful, Michael. Choosing not to believe in the devil won't protect you from him."
Sorry, I can only believe in God and even then ----------- I cannot prove to you or anyone the existence of God. As you say I am clearly in apostasy with regards to Satan. Furthermore, the above words are highly disturbing and not in agreement with the greatness of God.
God is everything! God is every single atom on the universe as well as the space between the atoms. God is master of everything; God is universal.
Allowing another entity (that is the opposite of God) to occupy space within the domain of God is illogical. It is illogical because it diminishes God. By definition God cannot be diminished.
The above suggests that Satan is lurking behind my back. That is not sound within the concept of a universal God. Furthermore, it removes my free will.
As I said before: Nothing changes if Satan is merely the symbol of evil within us. This in itself does not change the theology or the meaning in every Bible passage where Satan is mentioned.
I acknowledge that the original view of religion needed the concept of good versus evil. But, this concept remains the same if Satan is the symbol of evil.
Why is it so hard to believe the Bible is allegoric?
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