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Old 08-30-2013, 09:43 PM
 
670 posts, read 707,325 times
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Free Will means that we are in control of our actions and decide our potential future by reacting to the situations which come our way in a manner of our choosing.

Fate is when our choices are not our own but predetermined for us by some thing else.

Logic holds that if God is All-Knowing, God knows each action we will take before we take it, and how we will react in any given situation. If God is in control of Fate, we therefore lack free-will and any concepts such as Sin or Salvation would be false constructs invented by the human mind. If Fate is real any action you take was decided for you by God before you existed and life becomes a mere puppet show.

However if God is not All-Knowing then we still have Free-Will but in this belief God ceases to be in complete control, either by choice or lack of power. If God is not All-Knowing then God would not be all powerful either, thus many who adhere to the belief that Fate exists must also reject the concept of Free-Will.

However mankind does not perceive the universe or time as God does.
Imagine if you will that all the moments of your life from the beginning to the ending existed all at once that the present was every thing that will ever be you. I theorize that is the state God lives in. God is all at points in time.
However we also view time linear from start to finish, God would not have that restraint.
We humans view time as some thing fixed, yet If God is All-Powerful then God could perceive each possible reaction to each possible choice each person could make, thus there would be a network of interwoven timelines. Time rather than being Linear would be a giant grid of Interwoven matrices to God.
With this, it allows Fate and Free-Will to coexist because each possible choice reaps a different result, with different other choices, and eventually a different ending. Meaning that we each have multiple "Fates" from which we chose from, with each choice that we make it begins to Narrow and Narrow until the moment of our death where the Fate we chose is our final one.
Does God therefore have foreknowledge of what Fate we would ultimately chose?
If God does how then does Free-Will exists?
In order for Free-Will to Exists God must allow it to, could this mean that God would put aside the ability to know what we will do with our lives at the moment of our creation?

May love and peace be with you always.
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:49 PM
 
19,943 posts, read 14,567,981 times
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God cannot choose to sin. Does he have free will?
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Some Airport Transit Zone
2,348 posts, read 1,483,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael17 View Post
Free Will means that we are in control of our actions and decide our potential future by reacting to the situations which come our way in a manner of our choosing.

Fate is when our choices are not our own but predetermined for us by some thing else.

Logic holds that if God is All-Knowing, God knows each action we will take before we take it...
God knows all possible variations of our actions that we may take. But just which one of them we will take is defined by our free will. That is we have options, god knows all these options, we have a choice what action to opt by our free will.

We are creating our fate by activities of our free will.
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Old 08-31-2013, 04:40 AM
 
8,546 posts, read 7,707,121 times
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For Christians who gave their lives to Lord Jesus , and believe faith and in expectations for the plan of Lord Jesus for victory , Then the control of God can be in place , where they will be under condition of fate , were they will need to trust in the Lord ...........Where as like the Christians song `God is in Control `......There are conditions which must be meet, were the people who ignore the truth call of God , and go their own way in a free will , God is not asked to be in control and faith has never be expressed , where God will Not control were He is not invited , Where by default the devil will take up the lead and control the will of unprotected men , were the free fate of the occult and free will end up ....... See God will not control everyone lives because control is an abusive state , as you could see by control freaks fruit , which is not of God , and His perfect love
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:11 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
2,818 posts, read 3,021,808 times
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If I do have free will , what age did I obtain it? Because I sure did not choose my parents. And the choices I made growing up were based on the values ( if any) that they instilled. So now I react according to what my values are. But I did not choose my values, my parents did.
It is like those who say " I was predestined to be part of the elect", well, then that person had no free will in choosing that, God chose you, you will be the elect , period. You don't have a choice to be non elected. So how is that free will. God knew me in my mothers womb, so he knew exactly what I would do.
I have yet to catch God by surprise.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,519,824 times
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Some of your ideas have been expressed by John Henry Newman as "structural" nature of time, interesting to reflect on, but not really useful due to Joyce's "ineluctable modality," or "You Can't Go Home Again." (That one was Thomas Wolfe).

As I have said elsewhere, if your notion of sovereignty requires micromanagement, free will can't exist. If you don't accept the possibility of influences outside of physics, then the only reasonable conclusion is expressed in Determinism (we have to wonder if quantum physics and Heisenberg really make a difference or just add a layer of complexity). In such a scenario all our actions would be determined by conditions leading up to them.

The exception is the idea that God (or whatever force(s) may exist outside physical nature) can influence our decisions by providing some form of information that allows an actual choice. This I believe.
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:00 AM
 
Location: US
30,565 posts, read 16,767,611 times
Reputation: 2050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael17 View Post
Free Will means that we are in control of our actions and decide our potential future by reacting to the situations which come our way in a manner of our choosing.

Fate is when our choices are not our own but predetermined for us by some thing else.

Logic holds that if God is All-Knowing, God knows each action we will take before we take it, and how we will react in any given situation. If God is in control of Fate, we therefore lack free-will and any concepts such as Sin or Salvation would be false constructs invented by the human mind. If Fate is real any action you take was decided for you by God before you existed and life becomes a mere puppet show.

However if God is not All-Knowing then we still have Free-Will but in this belief God ceases to be in complete control, either by choice or lack of power. If God is not All-Knowing then God would not be all powerful either, thus many who adhere to the belief that Fate exists must also reject the concept of Free-Will.

However mankind does not perceive the universe or time as God does.
Imagine if you will that all the moments of your life from the beginning to the ending existed all at once that the present was every thing that will ever be you. I theorize that is the state God lives in. God is all at points in time.
However we also view time linear from start to finish, God would not have that restraint.
We humans view time as some thing fixed, yet If God is All-Powerful then God could perceive each possible reaction to each possible choice each person could make, thus there would be a network of interwoven timelines. Time rather than being Linear would be a giant grid of Interwoven matrices to God.
With this, it allows Fate and Free-Will to coexist because each possible choice reaps a different result, with different other choices, and eventually a different ending. Meaning that we each have multiple "Fates" from which we chose from, with each choice that we make it begins to Narrow and Narrow until the moment of our death where the Fate we chose is our final one.
Does God therefore have foreknowledge of what Fate we would ultimately chose?
If God does how then does Free-Will exists?
In order for Free-Will to Exists God must allow it to, could this mean that God would put aside the ability to know what we will do with our lives at the moment of our creation?

May love and peace be with you always.
You have fate confused with predestination...
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:00 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
2,818 posts, read 3,021,808 times
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I wonder how all this will play out in the far future, when mind control technology will be in place. I seen that there are things that read thoughts.
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Gettysburg, PA
1,770 posts, read 1,786,187 times
Reputation: 3493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael17 View Post
Free Will means that we are in control of our actions and decide our potential future by reacting to the situations which come our way in a manner of our choosing.

Fate is when our choices are not our own but predetermined for us by some thing else.

Logic holds that if God is All-Knowing, God knows each action we will take before we take it, and how we will react in any given situation. If God is in control of Fate, we therefore lack free-will and any concepts such as Sin or Salvation would be false constructs invented by the human mind. If Fate is real any action you take was decided for you by God before you existed and life becomes a mere puppet show.

However if God is not All-Knowing then we still have Free-Will but in this belief God ceases to be in complete control, either by choice or lack of power. If God is not All-Knowing then God would not be all powerful either, thus many who adhere to the belief that Fate exists must also reject the concept of Free-Will.

However mankind does not perceive the universe or time as God does.
Imagine if you will that all the moments of your life from the beginning to the ending existed all at once that the present was every thing that will ever be you. I theorize that is the state God lives in. God is all at points in time.
However we also view time linear from start to finish, God would not have that restraint.
We humans view time as some thing fixed, yet If God is All-Powerful then God could perceive each possible reaction to each possible choice each person could make, thus there would be a network of interwoven timelines. Time rather than being Linear would be a giant grid of Interwoven matrices to God.
With this, it allows Fate and Free-Will to coexist because each possible choice reaps a different result, with different other choices, and eventually a different ending. Meaning that we each have multiple "Fates" from which we chose from, with each choice that we make it begins to Narrow and Narrow until the moment of our death where the Fate we chose is our final one.
Does God therefore have foreknowledge of what Fate we would ultimately chose?
If God does how then does Free-Will exists?
In order for Free-Will to Exists God must allow it to, could this mean that God would put aside the ability to know what we will do with our lives at the moment of our creation?

May love and peace be with you always.
I struggle with this idea so much. It seems so incredibly contradictory to me (yet I realize that that is because I am trying to understand it with this limited, mortal mind). I have it stuck in my mind that free will is doing whatever you want, and sometimes I think this might not be what it actually means. Nevertheless, until I can understand it differently, it is logically implausible for the two situations to exist: that God can do whatever He wants and that people can do whatever they want. The two at some point must diverge else one would not be able to do whatever they want without having to adhere within some fixed limit.

To me it only makes sense then that people would be the ones who would be limited since God created them. For it to be the other way around then it would have to follow that people created God (this seems to be the conclusion of many atheists or even agnostics). It makes even more sense that it would be people who are limited especially for the fact that God has instilled in everyone their specific wants and desires--He has made everyone the way they are and that they are free to do what they want is true, yet nevertheless He has given it some definitive measure according to how He has determined it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael17 View Post
Does God therefore have foreknowledge of what Fate we would ultimately chose?
God's foreknowledge was explained to me somewhat in this way: It is not that he can look ahead and see the future as that would make God much the same as a seer who just has the ability to look ahead into the future. He has determined the future. Now I can't understand how He has done that, but to me it is completely different than just having knowledge of the future, for having knowledge of it therefore then implies that the one having just the knowledge of it did not have a part in executing how that future is to be unfolded or how it will take place.
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:06 AM
 
Location: US
30,565 posts, read 16,767,611 times
Reputation: 2050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab View Post
God's foreknowledge was explained to me somewhat in this way: It is not that he can look ahead and see the future as that would make God much the same as a seer who just has the ability to look ahead into the future. He has determined the future. Now I can't understand how He has done that, but to me it is completely different than just having knowledge of the future, for having knowledge of it therefore then implies that the one having just the knowledge of it did not have a part in executing how that future is to be unfolded or how it will take place.
Think of dominoes...
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