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Mary the physical mother of Jesus is of great importance to Catholics, but the Bible says very little about Mary. Here is a summary of what the Bible says about her:
The Bible describes Mary as the physical mother of Jesus, and that she was made pregnant by God. (Matthew 1:16, Luke 1:26-42, Luke 2:5-19) Mary visited her cousin Elisabeth (Luke 1:39-56) Mary attended a feast at Jerusalem with her family. (Luke 2:48-51) Mary is present at a marriage feast. (John 2:1-10) Mary looked for Jesus when He was teaching inside a house (Matthew 12:46-47, Mark 3:31, Luke 8:19). Mary went to see Jesus at the cross (John 19:25-27). Mary was committed to the care of Jesus' disciple John. (John 19:27) Mary lived with the disciples in Jerusalem for a while (Acts 1:14).
Actually, I thought Mary gave birth to Jesus and had to flee with her child and Joseph to Egypt. How long do you imagine that lasted? I'd like to see you standing face-to-face with Jesus telling Him this is all His mother partook in His life. She reared him from infancy and watched Him die naked, bloody, reviled, and tortured on the Cross for you.
What did you do in the life of Jesus? Pick up and Bible circa the 20th and 21st Century and read it.
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So everything Catholics say about Mary that is not in the Bible is based on tradition rather than the truth revealed to us God's Word.
Tradition dating back to Irenaus and Ploycarp. Polycarp learned from the Apostle John. You just stated Mary was committed to the care of the Apostle John.
It is recorded by Irenaeus, who heard him speak in his youth, and by Tertullian,[3] that he had been a disciple of John the Apostle.[4][5]Saint Jerome wrote that Polycarp was a disciple of John and that John had ordained him bishop of Smyrna.
So, that "tradition" is something real and old dating to Apostolic times. There are two Traditions with a capital T in Catholicism, Oral Tradition (non-written dating to the Apostles) and Written Tradition (the Bible). The two work together.
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Nowhere does the Bible say Mary was greater than any other Christian...
Really? You need something explicitly stated in the Bible to tell you this? How often is it a woman actually carries God inside her and gives birth to God, the God that will die for mankind's sins?
I would say it's at least a pretty rare event. At least.
Early Christians picked up on the sacred space of the Ark of the Covenant as it could not be contaminated to carry the Word of God. The 10 Commandments. Through typology... Early Christians recognized the Virgin Mary (why a a virgin? why not a ***** prostituting? God could have chosen a prostitute) as an archetype Ark of the Covenant.
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she was just a human like all of us. The Bible does not say people should worship Mary or pray to Mary. The Bible does not say Mary prays for us.
Eh... Catholics say she was human, just a very special human.
I love how some Protestants make reverence to the Virgin Mary out to be crazy and wild... yet try to talk to atheists and Muslims about how Jesus was human but not like the rest of us, but a God incarnate. As if this is soooo much more rational.
Ever think if God could be born through a woman's vagina and eat and sleep and be human like the rest of us that hmm... the Virgin Mary could probably be a little bit cool too . Not too much far fetched. Just saying...
Actually, I thought Mary gave birth to Jesus and had to flee with her child and Joseph to Egypt. How long do you imagine that lasted? I'd like to see you standing face-to-face with Jesus telling Him this is all His mother partook in His life. She reared him from infancy and watched Him die naked, bloody, reviled, and tortured on the Cross for you.
What did you do in the life of Jesus? Pick up and Bible circa the 20th and 21st Century and read it.
Tradition dating back to Irenaus and Ploycarp. Polycarp learned from the Apostle John. You just stated Mary was committed to the care of the Apostle John.
So, that "tradition" is something real and old dating to Apostolic times. There are two Traditions with a capital T in Catholicism, Oral Tradition (non-written dating to the Apostles) and Written Tradition (the Bible). The two work together.
Really? You need something explicitly stated in the Bible to tell you this? How often is it a woman actually carries God inside her and gives birth to God, the God that will die for mankind's sins?
I would say it's at least a pretty rare event. At least.
Early Christians picked up on the sacred space of the Ark of the Covenant as it could not be contaminated to carry the Word of God. The 10 Commandments. Through typology... Early Christians recognized the Virgin Mary (why a a virgin? why not a ***** prostituting? God could have chosen a prostitute) as an archetype Ark of the Covenant.
Eh... Catholics say she was human, just a very special human.
I love how some Protestants make reverence to the Virgin Mary out to be crazy and wild... yet try to talk to atheists and Muslims about how Jesus was human but not like the rest of us, but a God incarnate. As if this is soooo much more rational.
Ever think if God could be born through a woman's vagina and eat and sleep and be human like the rest of us that hmm... the Virgin Mary could probably be a little bit cool too . Not too much far fetched. Just saying...
The purpose of the virgin birth was so that Jesus could be born with sinless blood and be born a human. He cannot represent the human race on the cross if He is not also human. All of this is fact and does not make Mary out to be anymore or less human than you and I.
The purpose of the virgin birth was so that Jesus could be born with sinless blood and be born a human. He cannot represent the human race on the cross if He is not also human. All of this is fact and does not make Mary out to be anymore or less human than you and I.
All religions are not the same. Some emphasize different things. For example in some churches they don't allow musical instruments. In other religions they believe in Joseph Smith. In Catholicism there is devotion for the Virgin Mary.
In Catholicism there is mass every single day. Some people take communion every day. Others never take communion and have a religious service only once a week.
Some believe take the Bible literally; others believe is allegoric.
Some religions have no tradition and only do what is written on the Bible.
Who cares!
All religions are different.
There is no such thing as my religion is better than yours.
I simply presented a video made by Protestants that see the virgin in a good light.
You are correct, there are about 40-50 thousand denominations. You know why? Because for these folks religion is a business.
Your diatribe against the The Blessed Virgin is based on your Bible interpretation. You forget that the RCC is more than the Bible. IN fact, the RCC precedes the Bible.
Furthermore, God is MUCH MORE than the Bible. The Bible is a very useful book, but, it cannot be the accurate word of God. Too many errors and contradictions to be the true word of God.
Lastly, you were incorrect in quoting the Bible regarding the Virgin Mary:
Hope that helps!
Saying Protestants are in it for business is ridiculous. If I owned a business, I wouldn't want it branching off into tens of thousands of separate companies with the money going into millions of different hands. No, I would do whatever I could to keep it as one company, with all the money going into a few select hands, which sounds like the RCC.
You said the RCC precedes The Bible. Seriously, The Old Testament? If the RCC isn't based on The Bible then what is it based on?
Here are the verses you quoted, first yours, then the RCC approved CEV Bible, then the KJV (bold):
Hail Mary, full of Grace (Luke 1:28) The Lord is with you (Luke 1:28)
Luke 1:28 The angel greeted Mary and said, “You are truly blessed! The Lord is with you.” Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Blessed are you among women (Luke 1:41) Sounds more like Luke 1:28b to me
Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, her baby moved within her. The Holy Spirit came upon Elizabeth. Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus (Luke 1:42)
Luke 1:42 Then in a loud voice she said to Mary:God has blessed you more than any other woman! He has also blessed the child you will have. Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Holy Mary, Mother of God (Luke 1:43)
Luke 1:43 Why should the mother of my Lord come to me? Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Where does it say Holy Mary here or anywhere in The Bible? Hint, no where.
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death (James 5:16)
James 5:16 If you have sinned, you should tell each other what you have done. Then you can pray for one another and be healed. The prayer of an innocent person is powerful, and it can help a lot. James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Where does it say in this verse or any verse that Mary intercedes on our behalf and prays for us sinners? Hint, no where.
I don't sit around finding fault regarding the pope, purgatory, indulgences, confession, celibacy, pedophilia, and rituals. I don't question why millions of Catholics use unnatural birth control methods and have abortions outside of Church teachings. Why do you want to find fault with Protestants? Just because a handful, if even that many, of evangelical Protestants are more welcoming of Mary does not mean all denominations are or should be. Finding obscure references and examples to topics like fundamentalists hate Catholics, Protestants are in The Middle Ages, The Bible is uninspired, the virgin Mary comes to the Protestant Church, and starting threads around them is counterproductive and only serves to raise the ire of the faithful.
All religions are not the same. Some emphasize different things. For example in some churches they don't allow musical instruments. In other religions they believe in Joseph Smith. In Catholicism there is devotion for the Virgin Mary.
The difference between Mormons and Joseph Smith vs Catholics and Mary: There is no "hail Joseph" built into their practice. People can think what they like of Joseph Smith, but one of the worst mischaracterizations about Mormonism is that they worship Joseph Smith or pray to him or consider him to be divine. None of those things are actually true. Best comparison would be as Moses is to Judaism, Joseph Smith is to Mormonism. If that is offensive, or not offensive, that's my best take on it.
I don't understand where all this business of praying to Mary comes from. And yes, a hail Mary is a form of prayer. You can call a cat "dog" all day long but it doesn't change the cat into a dog. But at the end of the day, if you believe that praying to Mary is a valid practice, I got no problem with that.
And all Christians should have the highest respect for Mary. IMHO, the RCC takes that respect just a little too far, but I doubt it matters much in the end. If its right or if its wrong, God is merciful and is more interested in us loving one another and doing good works while acknowledging his hand in all things.
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In Catholicism there is mass every single day. Some people take communion every day. Others never take communion and have a religious service only once a week.
Some believe take the Bible literally; others believe is allegoric.
Some religions have no tradition and only do what is written on the Bible.
Who cares!
All religions are different.
There is no such thing as my religion is better than yours.
I simply presented a video made by Protestants that see the virgin in a good light.
This is interesting. You brought up Joseph Smith, yet the RCC's official stance is that Mormons will burn in hell for all eternity for their rejection of the Trinity. Protestants on the other hand will only have to suffer in purgatory for their rejection of the true Church.
I find it most heartening that Catholics are so inclusive and welcoming of differing opinions these days. Hopefully that translates into the RCC's official stances being more welcoming and inclusive. At this point, Protestants are the dogma-police Gestapo. Catholicism has made wonderful progress in being more tollerant of differing viewpoints.
The purpose of the virgin birth was so that Jesus could be born with sinless blood and be born a human.
What is sinless blood?
And how does sinless blood result from a woman's virginity as opposed to a non-virgin woman in a chaste marriage or an unmarried woman that works as a prostitute.
The Virgin Mary was born free of Original Sin according to Catholicism. If she was a sinner her virginity would not negate that fact.
The divinity of Christ was not his human nature but his divine nature which to my understanding had nothing to do with his blood or blood type. His personhood is theologically said to be divine. Then again... Catholics consume the Eucharist which is body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus, so, maybe his blood was divine according to Catholic theology. I have no idea. I'm not a theologian. But I've never heard of this sinless blood thing.
Anyways...
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He cannot represent the human race on the cross if He is not also human. All of this is fact and does not make Mary out to be anymore or less human than you and I.
Umm... Adam?
Adam was human. What vagina did he get birthed through? Oh yeah... none.
God did not need a virgin or woman to become incarnate.
And again... Catholics do not say Mary was less or more human. Duh! she's a saint. Saint Maria. Santa Maria.
She's simply the greatest saint of the Church and the Mother of God.
Being the Mother of God she plays a pretty prominent role in the history of salvation, Christianity, and the Church. Kind of like Abe Lincoln for Protestant Americans or the Queen Elizabeth the Virgin Queen for the English. You know... "just humans" with sins, that a lot of you exalt above the woman that actually birthed your savior. But hey, let me not get in the way of your history lessons and "facts."
Saying Protestants are in it for business is ridiculous. If I owned a business, I wouldn't want it branching off into tens of thousands of separate companies with the money going into millions of different hands. No, I would do whatever I could to keep it as one company, with all the money going into a few select hands, which sounds like the RCC.
Why 40,000 different denominations? Some are independent and make their own rules. But, that is another topic.
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You said the RCC precedes The Bible. Seriously, The Old Testament? If the RCC isn't based on The Bible then what is it based on?
The RCC is wrong on this one, and sadly the Protestants adopted this method. However, the RCC recognizes the allegory of many parts in the bible.
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I don't sit around finding fault regarding the pope, purgatory, indulgences, confession, celibacy, pedophilia, and rituals.
Wow! You casually threw in the pedophilia insult. You have violated the bylaws of the forum. Furthermore, everything you have posted is discredited. This is sad because I thought your post had some merit. Lastly a true Christian does not post this sort of thing. IMHO, this reveals the intolerance of some evangelicals.
Last edited by Julian658; 09-07-2013 at 08:50 PM..
The difference between Mormons and Joseph Smith vs Catholics and Mary: There is no "hail Joseph" built into their practice. People can think what they like of Joseph Smith, but one of the worst mischaracterizations about Mormonism is that they worship Joseph Smith or pray to him or consider him to be divine. None of those things are actually true. Best comparison would be as Moses is to Judaism, Joseph Smith is to Mormonism. If that is offensive, or not offensive, that's my best take on it.
Thanks for the info, but I did not try to imply equivalence. I was merely pointing out differences in other religions.
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I don't understand where all this business of praying to Mary comes from. And yes, a hail Mary is a form of prayer. You can call a cat "dog" all day long but it doesn't change the cat into a dog. But at the end of the day, if you believe that praying to Mary is a valid practice, I got no problem with that.
Praying to Mary is part of the Catholic religion. However, Catholics are aware Mary is not God. I am glad you have no problems with that.
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This is interesting. You brought up Joseph Smith, yet the RCC's official stance is that Mormons will burn in hell for all eternity for their rejection of the Trinity. Protestants on the other hand will only have to suffer in purgatory for their rejection of the true Church.
Look at this:
while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
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I find it most heartening that Catholics are so inclusive and welcoming of differing opinions these days. Hopefully that translates into the RCC's official stances being more welcoming and inclusive. At this point, Protestants are the dogma-police Gestapo. Catholicism has made wonderful progress in being more tollerant of differing viewpoints.
If you like esoteric sayings that are poetic and sound like they say more they actually do, then perhaps you should practice some non-Christian religion of East Asia.
I don't sit around finding fault regarding the pope, purgatory, indulgences, confession, celibacy, pedophilia, and rituals.
This poster implied that pedophilia is part of Roman Catholicism. This is clearly very insulting and shows a lack of class by the poster gonpostal. Using insults is a sign of desperation in a debate, I get that.
I reported the post and the mods did nothing.
OK, no big deal, but I wanted other posters in this thread to know.
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. Not too much far fetched. Just saying...
