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Old 09-07-2013, 01:54 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,873,329 times
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I am only a recent member off this forum, but those of you that have read some of my comments really understand that I am NOT a Christian nor will I ever be a Christian

That being said, I have extensively studied the Bible, in two languages, along with numerous concordances, and numerous historical books that deal with religious issues. It is that study which has insured that I would stay away from this religion; I have to much of a scientific mind and respect nature too much, which has its own spiritual values.

That study has also indicated to me that the greatest mover in early times of Christianity was Paul. There's no question in anybody's mind that he was real person. One could give him credit is being the primary salesperson of Christianity at that time.

In your opinions how would Christianity have developed without Paul's efforts and writings? Most biblical scholars acknowledge that the gospels were written after Paul and many of those scholars believe that the synoptic writers drew on Paul's writings for their gospels. Who wrote the first synoptic gospel is still being debated and I won't draw any conclusions on that.

So the question becomes, would Christianity be any different, either by faith or by dogma, if Paul had not been written or him not being as good a proselytizer as he was? Paul was to Christianity what Buddha was to Buddhism and Mohammed to Islam.

Thoughts? Please don't sidetrack on some of my comments but discuss the main thrust of the question... how Christianity would look like without Paul.
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Old 09-07-2013, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
1,999 posts, read 2,459,109 times
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What did Siddhartha Buddha write?

The story of Buddha's birth is more akin to Jesus than to Paul's.

Buddha was BCE (Before Common Era) and Buddhists sacred texts are CE (Common Era).

The Coptic Church does not trace it's origin to Paul but to the Apostle Mark. The Church of Jerusalem to the Apostle James. The Church of India in Kerala to the Apostle Thomas.

The Church of Rome is traced to the Apostles Peter and Paul.

Unlike Buddhism the sacred texts of the New Testament were composed soon after the death of Christ. It would take about 300 years until an official canon of various texts were put together though.

But I like how you attribute Buddhism to Buddha and Islam to Mohammad, and carry on the narrative Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus.

Kind of makes the Church of Satan ironic. I mean... they do not model themselves as a contradiction to Hinduism, Buddhism, or Islam. They mark themselves a contradiction to Christianity and the Christians Jesus.

I study science too, and respect nature, so, I don't care about your self accolades of having a "scientific mind."

Paul was a significant contributor and Church Father to Early Christianity, yes. I don't know how Christianity would look without Paul. Why don't you go ask the Coptics? The Church of Rome with it's Bishop (Pope) would still claim to be the successor of the Apostle Peter.

How would Christianity look with out the Apostle John and the Book of Revelations attributed to him? How would it look without the Virgin Mary? Without Judas? Without Europe?

Who would the United States look without George Washington? Without Thomas Jefferson?

How would Al Qaida look without Osama Bin Laden?

What would be the fate of Syria today if Obama was a plumber in Chicago and had never become President of the United States?

What if Buddha was a woman?

What if Mohammad was a black man named Marvin?

Last edited by Supine; 09-07-2013 at 03:15 PM..
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Old 09-07-2013, 02:30 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,873,329 times
Reputation: 4559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supine View Post
What did Siddhartha Buddha write?

The story of Buddha's birth is more akin to Jesus than to Paul's.

Buddha was BCE (Before Common Era) and Buddhists sacred texts are CE (Common Era).

the Coptic Church does not trace it's origin to Paul but to the Apostle Mark. The Church of Jerusalem to the Apostle James. The Church of India in Kerala to the Apostle Thomas.

The Church of Rome is traced to the Apostles Peter and Paul.

Unlike Buddhism the sacred texts of the New Testament were composed soon after the death of Christ. It would take about 300 years until an official canon of various texts were put together though.

But I like how you attribute Buddhism to Buddha and Islam to Mohammad, and carry on the narrative Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus.

Kind of makes the Church of Satan ironic. I mean... they do not model themselves as a contradiction to Hinduism, Buddhism, or Islam. They mark themselves a contradiction to Christianity and the Christians Jesus.

I study science too, and respect nature, so, I don't care about your self accolades of having a "scientific mind."

Paul was a significant contributor and Church Father to Early Christianity, yes. I don't know how Christianity would look without Paul. Why don't you go ask the Coptics? The Church of Rome with it's Bishop (Pope) would still claim to be the successor of the Apostle Peter.

How would Christianity look with out the Apostle John and the Book of Revelations attributed to him? How would it look without the Virgin Mary? Without Judas? Without Europe?

Who would the United States look without George Washington? Without Thomas Jefferson?

How would Al Qaida look without Osama Bin Laden?

What would be the fate of Syria today if Obama was a plumber in Chicago and had never become President of the United States?

What if Buddha was a woman?

What if Mohammad was a black man named Marvin?
Didn't any one tell you that one does not answer a question with a question?

That just comes across as dismissive. If that was your intention... congratulations, you succeeded. It says more about you then me, and I hope you feel really good about yourself.

It's almost Christian like.
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Old 09-07-2013, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
1,999 posts, read 2,459,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Didn't any one tell you that one does not answer a question with a question?

That just comes across as dismissive. If that was your intention... congratulations, you succeeded. It says more about you then me, and I hope you feel really good about yourself.

It's almost Christian like.
I answered your question. I thought being "scientific minded" you'd at least have basic reading comprehension.

My answer in post #2:

Quote:
Paul was a significant contributor and Church Father to Early Christianity, yes. I don't know how Christianity would look without Paul. Why don't you go ask the Coptics? The Church of Rome with it's Bishop (Pope) would still claim to be the successor of the Apostle Peter.
Also I had stated this:

Quote:
The Coptic Church does not trace it's origin to Paul but to the Apostle Mark. The Church of Jerusalem to the Apostle James. The Church of India in Kerala to the Apostle Thomas.
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Old 09-07-2013, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
1,999 posts, read 2,459,109 times
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At about the 5:36 mark of this video it speaks of the Apostle Mark founding the Coptic Church in Egypt.

Than at about the 11:30 or 11:50 or so mark of the video it mentions the Apostle Mark starting a Christian doctrine school with St. Justin Martyr presiding as the Dean of the school.


Documentary on Coptic Orthodox Parishes in Jerusalem (The Church in Jerusalem) - YouTube

Last edited by Supine; 09-07-2013 at 03:35 PM.. Reason: change "theology" to "Christian doctrine"
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Old 09-07-2013, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Florida -
10,213 posts, read 14,751,832 times
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CHRISTianity is not about Paul, but, about CHRIST! -- God did not need Paul in order to offer Salvation and Life to the World --- He sent Christ! While Paul recorded most of the letters that we regard as the New Testament, he was appalled by those who sought to make him more important than Christ or the message.

1 Cor 3:1-6 - 3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow.
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Old 09-07-2013, 09:12 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,873,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
CHRISTianity is not about Paul, but, about CHRIST! -- God did not need Paul in order to offer Salvation and Life to the World --- He sent Christ! While Paul recorded most of the letters that we regard as the New Testament, he was appalled by those who sought to make him more important than Christ or the message.

1 Cor 3:1-6 - 3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow.
That's all nice and good, but my question still stands, could Christianity have developed in the same manner if Paul was not there to promote it?

If so why and how.
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Old 09-07-2013, 09:33 PM
 
1,263 posts, read 1,381,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
That's all nice and good, but my question still stands, could Christianity have developed in the same manner if Paul was not there to promote it?

If so why and how.
Yes, of course Christianity would have still spread.

Why and how? Jesus/God commanded it to be so.

Read Acts 1: Jesus said to His disciples, "you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Paul wasn't even converted yet when Jesus spoke these words.
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Old 09-07-2013, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,477,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post

So the question becomes, would Christianity be any different, either by faith or by dogma, if Paul had not been written or him not being as good a proselytizer as he was? Paul was to Christianity what Buddha was to Buddhism and Mohammed to Islam.

Thoughts? Please don't sidetrack on some of my comments but discuss the main thrust of the question... how Christianity would look like without Paul.
You have it wrong as Paul was not to Christianity as the Buddha or the Prophet. Jesus is the Guy, not Paul.

As a side note Paul was Vetted by Peter, John, James and several other apostles. So what is your game?
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Old 09-07-2013, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,827,979 times
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It is really hard to say how Christianity would have developed without Paul's input in the light of the initial impression that the faith was an extension of Judaism by many without really taking into account the growing hostility among the traditional Jews to the new message. Who wrote the book of Hebrews though?
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