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The Church isn't endorsing the sin. It's embracing the sinner. BIG DIFFERENCE!
I know of a church in a very gay part of town (I will not mention the city for obvious reasons) where the altar servers are mostly members of the gay and lesbian community. I know the priest is not gay, but he accepts them as parishioners. These parishioners are very pious and when I visited it was not uncommon to have as many as six servers during mass. The singing and music was amazing. Some parishes have more talented members than others.
I believe this is a good move by the Pope.
I always think, during any change, that it is wise to first follow the money because that often gives the best motivation for such changes.
The church needs to grow in 'have' (vs. have not) countries where the contributions are greater, so it has to change its face to attract these people and to stop repelling them.
On the other hand, it certainly does not want to discourage the adherents that it has held on to.
How many nuns have left the church? An embarrassing lot of them. Couldn't the same happen with many men in the church if it comes down too heavy on homosexuals - so the Pope decides, in that issue, that it is not for him to judge, hate the sin but love the sinner.
So I see the idea of going easy on birth control and abortion as being similar tactics.
And I suspect it's Satan inspiring your heart as your antagonistic comment in post #11 of this thread suggests: Pope Francis Shielding a Sex Abuser
A wolf in sheep clothing you are. And I'm old enough and experienced enough in life to know grown men can come dressed as sheep. Young teenagers seduced by pederast priest or small children on the street lured into cars by pedophile grown men aren't wise enough to see right away that wolves can come dressed as sheep....
I hope you find the help you need to deal with your problems.
As the leader of Christendom and the Vicar of Christ this is the correct move. Hopefully, others will follow.
I'm sorry, but continually attempting to elevate Catholicism to a level above other religions is thinly veiled bashing.
Back to the original post. The RCC is in crisis mode. Attendance and membership is down except in Africa and Asia. Unlike some who make wild unsubstantiated claims, here is the documentation. Catholics in crisis - The Week
Quote:
United States...........have seen their numbers decline in recent years, but the Catholic Church has taken the biggest hit. Since the 1960s, four American-born Catholics have left the church for every one who has converted, according to a 2009 Pew study. In 2008 alone, Catholic membership declined by 400,000. More than 1,000 parishes have closed since 1995, and the number of priests has fallen from about 49,000 to 40,000 during that same period. Some 3,400 Catholic parishes in the U.S. now lack a resident priest. “Catholicism is in decline across America,” says sociologist David Carlin. What about in Europe?
The situation there is even more dire, especially in the most historically devout countries. In 1991, 84 percent of the Irish population attended Mass at least once a week. Today the weekly attendance figure is less than 50 percent. In Spain, 81 percent of the population identifies itself as Catholic, but two-thirds say they seldom or never attend services. And the priest shortage is acute—in England and Wales, the church ordained only 16 clergy members in all of 2009. What sparked this decline?
Its roots actually trace back to the 1960s, when a split developed over the reforms introduced by Pope John XXIII. Dismayed by the pope’s calls for more participation by laypeople in church affairs.........
With the RCC's unwillingness to clean it's own house of sex scandals, makes any talk of change, and talk is cheap, something that will be rejected by the masses, though lauded by the media.
Ephesions 5:5 (ESV)
For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Romans 12:2 (ESV)
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Romans 12:1 (ESV)
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
1 Corinthians 6:19 (ESV)
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,............
I'm sorry, but continually attempting to elevate Catholicism to a level above other religions is thinly veiled bashing.
Back to the original post. The RCC is in crisis mode. Attendance and membership is down except in Africa and Asia. Unlike some who make wild unsubstantiated claims, here is the documentation. Catholics in crisis - The Week
With the RCC's unwillingness to clean it's own house of sex scandals, makes any talk of change, and talk is cheap, something that will be rejected by the masses, though lauded by the media.
Ephesions 5:5 (ESV)
For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Romans 12:2 (ESV)
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Romans 12:1 (ESV)
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
1 Corinthians 6:19 (ESV)
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,............
Actually a good post.
I predict the US will go the way of Europe. Church goers will go down drastically and this will affect all other religions besides Catholicism.
Quote:
A new study released on Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that it was not just liberal mainline Protestants, like Methodists or Episcopalians, who abandoned their faith, but also more conservative evangelical and “born again” Protestants. The losses were among white Protestants, but not among black or minority Protestants, the study found, based on surveys conducted during the summer.
However, religion is growing among the minorities. Protestants have also made gains in South America by converting Catholic peasants that are more attracted to the more charismatic side of Bible belt churches.
The Pope isn't saying that the Church is going to change their position on these issues. Just that we need to be more open, understanding and accepting of people who practice them. All of these are sins.
Open in what way?
One problem men of every generation has--so far as I can tell from reading history--is that they see the world and their decisions only for their time. They don't see what they will hand over to their grandchildren.
What has Pope Francis stated that I have not heard from John Paul II or Pope Benedict about the dignity of homosexuals? Can you point me where in the Catholic catechism his comments are so revolutionary in accepting the human dignity of homosexuals?
Did any Pope refuse to meet with President Bill Clinton or Obama even though both support legalized abortion?
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Just because you sin, doesn't mean you are excommunicated from the Church. We are all sinners. It's between the sinner and Christ what our ultimate fate is.
I've read a fair bit of Catholic history. Historians have said of the Catholic Church the phrase, "The Church is hard on heretics and easy on sinners."
The Catholic Church has always been rather easy on sinners--at least easier than orthodox Protestantism--and that being easy on sinners, including them in the Church, partly what helped the propaganda of the Protestant Reformation. Do you know that during the 1600's Catholic Italy was known among the Catholic world as nation of sodomites "worse than the Turks," wherein Protestants would joke the Italian men like boys as much as they do girls.
And there is a long history of the Protestant world associating the Catholic priesthood with "unmanly" homosexuals.
Quote:
All Francis is saying is that we have been too hard on these particular sinners and driven many of them away from the Church.
Really? Gay men have felt more fear of joining the Catholic priesthood than the U.S. Marine Corps? You evidently didn't serve in the Marines when I did.
The complaint is actually the opposite. That heterosexual men are driven out of the seminaries. How so? Peer reviews and assessments. If you turn down gay advancements or flatly reject homosexuality as a sin... you are deemed unfit for the priesthood or harassed to drop out of the seminary according to some heterosexual men that dropped out of seminary. To be honest... I doubted these claims, or thought them to be wild exaggerations of the conservative Catholics bent on a dishonest agenda. That what I thought years ago before the sex scandal broke.
Now, out of mature honesty to myself, as well as to God, I have to question exactly how much of the ranks of the priesthood is infiltrated by homosexual priests as well as homosexual lobbyists?
Worse yet... and I seriously hope this is not the case (but I'm almost resigned to lower my head and shake it as I think I am going to have to come to terms with the fact it is)... that Satanic worshipers have infiltrated not just the ranks of the priesthood but the Vatican itself.
So, in terms of the military concepts of "dejection" and "morale" in troops... exactly who is Pope Francis trying to build the morale up of inside the Catholic Church? The heterosexual priests or the homosexual priests, or worse yet the pederasts and pedophile priests within their ranks?
There is also another adult question one has to ask at this point. As it has become apparent even highest ranking members of the Church have gotten exposed in blackmails and money/banking corruption and closet homosexual affairs. Has Pope Francis been involved in gay romances/sex, and if so is he under the blackmail of those that know and sympathize with the gay movement inside the Church?
Before being Pope, in Argentina he called gay marriage "the work of Satan." He crashed heads with the President of Argentina over gay marriage and abortion. Now all of a sudden his tone takes a 360 degree turn. Why?
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We need to be more accepting and loving of ALL sinners. Keeping them close to the Church will only strengthen their faith and hopefully save their souls. By driving them away, they don't stand much of a chance for salvation. And that is not the goal of the Catholic Church.
@ bold: like say... heroin addicts? The Church will not ordain some recovered heroin addict (not 9 times out of 10 at least), they don't even want them in the monastery. However, the leaders of the Church apparently have no problem ordaining effeminate gay men that openly teach homosexuality is not immoral, nor ordaining gay men that are not effeminate.
Between the police and courts that will arrest and throw in jail heroin addicts and the Church that shuns them from all religious life, who is left to "love" that sinner?
Yet, you don't see heroin addicts making a huge fuss the Church has driven them away. They accept their discrimination as a consequence of their sinful life. And many in recovery seek to repent. And they can repent until they are blue face the Church will still not ordain them. Why? If they relapse they might make the priesthood look bad. Yeah...like all the pederast priest and all the lawsuits filed against the Catholic Church has not done any of that.
Homosexuals like heroin addicts are to be welcomed into the lay ranks of the Church as the Church was missioned for sinners--but to call people to convert from sin (not to remain in sin).
But given the chance of pederasty, like the heroin addicted relapsing and embarrassing the priesthood, Pope Benedict is probably right that gay men shouldn't become priests. It's called discrimination. Just like women discriminate against men as potential partners for sex. Just like voters discriminate when selecting candidates for office.
That's my view anyways [shrug].
I have a video I want to put up with Michael Voris in Italy. But I'll put it up in a post after this one.
But, some gay people cannot change who they are. It is that simple.
True, but many straight people cant help there struggle with premarital sex either, but they dont go to churches saying I am who I am and I will continue to have him with this person outside of marriage because God made me this way. Either way a guy on girl sex outside of marriage vs a guy on guy sex outside of marriage is sexual immorality and both sides should be addressed rather than making gay sex awful, but straight sex outside of marriage isnt too bad.
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The Church will not ordain some recovered heroin addict (not 9 times out of 10 at least), they don't even want them in the monastery. However, the leaders of the Church apparently have no problem ordaining effeminate gay men that openly teach homosexuality is not immoral, nor ordaining gay men that are not effeminate. 
