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It's beyond me why you expect to "see me in heaven" when you reject what Jesus revealed.
I don't reject anything that Jesus revealed -- not one word of it. I just reject your personal interpretation of scripture. So once again, be watching for me. I'll come up to you, tap you on the shoulder and say, "Hi, twin! It's me -- Katzpur!" Oh, and by the way... I may be hanging out with some Catholics. They won't be hard to miss, because there are so many of them. At any rate, I can't wait to see your face.
Jesus doesn't include anything other in those verses:
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Acts 15:11
We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe[ that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
2 Timothy 3:15
how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only
but as usual, you asked for proof never having any intentions other than reinforce your stiff necked opposition to the truth.
Not true, Twin. I genuinely appreciated your effort to support your contentions . . . but the ONLY verses that indicate "alone" are the ones referring to God. That would be why they say "ONLY." Notice also, Twin . . . that in John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, . . . it says nothing about believing all the Solas or anything else that you believe.
Christianity started when people began to follow Jesus Christ and accept His promise of salvation through Him. That was during His lifetime. He was telling His followers all along that they needed to be baptized. Are you saying that the ones who were baptized prior to the Pentecost were not "real Christians"? Are you saying that those who were baptized in the years prior to 325 A.D. did not receive a "Christian baptism"?
The Christian Church began at Pentecost. Jesus was Jewish. And God is not Christian.
Muslims say Jesus was Muslim, so, I guess those followers you say were walking around following Jesus during his life were not Christians but Muslims.
Christianity started when people began to follow Jesus Christ and accept His promise of salvation through Him. That was during His lifetime. He was telling His followers all along that they needed to be baptized. Are you saying that the ones who were baptized prior to the Pentecost were not "real Christians"? Are you saying that those who were baptized in the years prior to 325 A.D. did not receive a "Christian baptism"?
I forgot to answer your question about anyone baptized by Jesus or the apostles. I'm not a theologian but I would hazard a guess if that happened then they would be validly baptized. I assume. I'm not sure. But that is a good question.
Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.
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Jesus was Jewish.
You're absolutely right, but Christians believe He was the Messiah (i.e. the Christ), and they follow Him. It really doesn't matter in the slightest that He was born Jewish.
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And God is not Christian.
I can't recall suggesting that He is.
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Muslims say Jesus was Muslim, so, I guess those followers you say were walking around following Jesus during his life were not Christians but Muslims.
I don't reject anything that Jesus revealed -- not one word of it. I just reject your personal interpretation of scripture. So once again, be watching for me. I'll come up to you, tap you on the shoulder and say, "Hi, twin! It's me -- Katzpur!" Oh, and by the way... I may be hanging out with some Catholics. They won't be hard to miss, because there are so many of them. At any rate, I can't wait to see your face.
Sorry to say this but you saying
"I don't reject anything that Jesus revealed -- not one word of it. I just reject your personal interpretation of scripture"
is to ultimately say that Jesus' is wrong. When Jesus says for example:
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
the word "faith" is all alone by itself. Never does the Bible reveal "progress to become everything that sons and daughters of God have the potential to become".... which both of us know what the final result of "the potential to become" means.
No Katzpur, You will not see me in your heaven. For I'm fully convinced that in this one verse alone, Jesus never revealed to this woman nor anyone in the Bible the concept of:
agency (Abraham 3:25)
progression ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 348, 349, 365)
conditional forgiveness (The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp 324-325)
It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you.
the potential to become a god (Gospel Principles page 9)
Everything that he does is to help his children become like him-a god. He has said, "Behold, this is my work and my glory-to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39)
We both know why you oppose the 5 Solas as being the narrow path that I spoke of earlier.
Historically, Christianity has not taught that. Historically, it has taught that he is God, and that without him you cannot get to the Father.
We might be getting off topic though.
I'm curious what the line is that we should draw that determines if it's a new religion instead of denomination. What defines that?
Very good thread. I think you are nailing the issue that JESUS is LORD. Jehovah/YHVH/Yawhew, the only true and living GOD manifest in the flesh as the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father which are ONE.
Without the one you do not have the other. Without Jesus no one has the Father as the Father is manifest in the Son. When you look at the Son you are looking at the Father who is in the expressed image of His person. The Holy Spirit is the "other" (allos meaning another of the same kind) comforter in reference to JESUS. The promise of the Holy Spirit was to be given after the ascension of Jesus to the Father. This is the Trinity Doctrine, and I do believe that the only way for one to understand it is to be "born again". Even then one does not fully understand it, but believes it because God says it's true.
It's very clear that God is ONE and that HE is SAVIOR and that He is a Jealous God for our love in which will NOT give His glory to another. If Jesus was not YHVH God incarnate our Creator, than God has given His glory to another as all knees are going to bow to JESUS declaring Him to be LORD.
JESUS is KING and our ONLY LORD.
I believe that centrality to the true Christian message is that Jesus is God incarnate and LORD. All will bow to HIM, the only true and living God creator and redeemer of all. We must submit to JESUS as Lord and repent to God through Him NOW accepting His free pardon of Salvation through receiving HIS ATONING WORKS in redemption.
We can not earn or deserve what he will FREELY GIVE to the humble repentant heart that comes to JESUS for salvation as He declares all that the Father gives Him will come to Him and all that come shall never be cast out. When JESUS speaks He is speaking in the authority of GOD, and what He speaks comes to pass as He declares the end from the beginning foretelling the betrayal of Judas. YHVH God says there is NONE like Him.
Only GOD can tell the end from the beginning. JESUS told the end from the beginning. Jesus, the only begotten Son of God IS the eternal God manifest in human form.
We have an entire ETERNITY to fully grasp the vastness of GOD. Without the anointing of the Holy Spirit, we try to rationalize things with our finite mind.. thus we get strange doctrines that branch off.
I think Salvation by God's Grace through Faith in JESUS a gift of God that can not be earned or deserved but freely received by the new birth and that JESUS is LORD of ALL Creation is central to pure unadultered Christian doctrine.
It's interesting that in the book of Jude and 2 peter 2 one of the marks of false teachers is denying JESUS as the ONLY LORD God.
Many will say to JESUS on "that day" LORD LORD, but He will tell them to depart from them you workers of iniquity as He never KNEW them.
Your MUST KNOW JESUS personally to be saved. One can now enter the Holy of Holies the eternal throne of GOD through the BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. ONLY through His blood can we approach God. WE CANNOT APPROACH HIM ON OUR OWN MERIT or perceived RIGHTEOUS STANDING. The priests in the OT had to offer a sacrifice for their own sin first prior to offering the sacrifice for the people. Abel's sacrifice was received as it was what GOD ORDAINED not Cain who approached God with the fruits of the cursed ground.
Empty RELIGION going through the religious motions of going to church, doing good works, and even praying does NOT give glory to God in no change in heart. God HATES hypocrisy and the outward show. He wants a change in heart. Sin broke fellowship with God. The blood of Jesus Christ restores that fellowship through confession and forsaking turning your heart to God through Jesus Christ.
Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.
You're not really disagreeing with me. You're disagree with the Catholic Church which teaches the Christian Church began on Pentecost.
You're absolutely right, but Christians believe He was the Messiah (i.e. the Christ), and they follow Him. It really doesn't matter in the slightest that He was born Jewish.
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I can't recall suggesting that He is.
I wanted to point out that God is not Christian, this is why Catholicism can find truth in non-Christian religions like Islam that seek out God. Yet, being "Christian" denotes something," just as being "male" denotes something. Muslims follow Jesus as the Messiah or a prophet of God but they don't call themselves Christians. In fact, the Koran mentions both Christians and Jews. It denotes Christians as those that have monks and worship the Virgin Mary. The Koran provides a conception of what a "Christian" is. And its not a Muslim.
Stating a Christian is one that has a valid baptism and believes in the Holy Trinity does not insult non-Christians.
I don't see you going around preaching to Muslims that Hindus and Buddhists are Muslims if they selectively follow a few of Mohammad teachings?
But this confusion of identification is a typical trait of the modern West rooted in liberals confusion over sex and gender. Girls born trapped in boys bodies, Muslims and Christians. Just a total confusion based upon "feelings."
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Interesting interpretation.
Well... you said Jesus was the prophet. The Messiah. And you seem to imply following just 1 view of his (like feed the hungry) makes you Christian. There are teachings of Jesus that Muslims follow. They don't follow his command to have one spouse because they say God granted Mohammads request to allow Muslim men to marry up to 4 (or maybe it's 5) wives, so as to outnumber the Christians.
There were plenty of "nice" Jews walking around before and during the time Jesus walked the earth. He was no abolitionist, so, he wasn't so nice as to improve the material lives and social status of all people, such as the slaves whom he told top obey their masters. I'll hazard a guess there were a lot of "nicer" Jews walking around than Jesus.
Jesus said he would vomit the luke warm out of his mouth. Which tells me he respects suicide bombers and Muslim Jihadists more than the luke warm that claim to folow him by proclaim "Jesus said do whatever you like so long as you live a nice comfy, middle-class, life and gorge yourself in as much pleasures as you can, and smile at everyone."
You're not really disagreeing with me. You're disagree with the Catholic Church which teaches the Christian Church began on Pentecost.
You're absolutely right, but Christians believe He was the Messiah (i.e. the Christ), and they follow Him. It really doesn't matter in the slightest that He was born Jewish.
I wanted to point out that God is not Christian, this is why Catholicism can find truth in non-Christian religions like Islam that seek out God. Yet, being "Christian" denotes something," just as being "male" denotes something. Muslims follow Jesus as the Messiah or a prophet of God but they don't call themselves Christians. In fact, the Koran mentions both Christians and Jews. It denotes Christians as those that have monks and worship the Virgin Mary. The Koran provides a conception of what a "Christian" is. And its not a Muslim.
Stating a Christian is one that has a valid baptism and believes in the Holy Trinity does not insult non-Christians.
I don't see you going around preaching to Muslims that Hindus and Buddhists are Muslims if they selectively follow a few of Mohammad teachings?
But this confusion of identification is a typical trait of the modern West rooted in liberals confusion over sex and gender. Girls born trapped in boys bodies, Muslims and Christians. Just a total confusion based upon "feelings."
Well... you said Jesus was the prophet. The Messiah. And you seem to imply following just 1 view of his (like feed the hungry) makes you Christian. There are teachings of Jesus that Muslims follow. They don't follow his command to have one spouse because they say God granted Mohammads request to allow Muslim men to marry up to 4 (or maybe it's 5) wives, so as to outnumber the Christians.
There were plenty of "nice" Jews walking around before and during the time Jesus walked the earth. He was no abolitionist, so, he wasn't so nice as to improve the material lives and social status of all people, such as the slaves whom he told top obey their masters. I'll hazard a guess there were a lot of "nicer" Jews walking around than Jesus.
Jesus said he would vomit the luke warm out of his mouth. Which tells me he respects suicide bombers and Muslim Jihadists more than the luke warm that claim to folow him by proclaim "Jesus said do whatever you like so long as you live a nice comfy, middle-class, life and gorge yourself in as much pleasures as you can, and smile at everyone."
I just want to point out the bolded part. The Scriptures are pretty clear that God either sees us as either forgiven seen "in Christ" the Passover lamb justified by our Faith in Him clothed in His perfect righteousness or not seen "in Christ" and clothed with our own personal righteousness which results in weeping and gnashing of teeth. It is either one or the other positionally.
So God is not "Christian". JESUS Christ is GOD, and God does not give His glory to another. Jesus says his mother and brethren do HIS Words, not Muhammeds. Not serving "other gods".
Sincerity is not enough. One must be putting their Faith in the right person. Putting one's Faith in any other person than Jesus Christ results in stumbling at the stumbling stone resulting in damnation. It does not give God glory to follow the teachings of Muhammed, Buddah, or the Pope.
It gives Him glory to follow the teachings of JESUS CHrist. << period
"I don't reject anything that Jesus revealed -- not one word of it. I just reject your personal interpretation of scripture"
is to ultimately say that Jesus' is wrong.
You're not sorry to say anything you say, twin. You live to be argumentative.
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When Jesus says for example:
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
the word "faith" is all alone by itself.
Yeah, in that particular verse it is. I could give you multiple other examples in which we are told otherwise.
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Never does the Bible reveal "progress to become everything that sons and daughters of God have the potential to become".... which both of us know what the final result of "the potential to become" means.
Sure it does. You just choose to ignore it.
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No Katzpur, You will not see me in your heaven.
Never say never, twin. I am so looking forward to seeing the look on your face! It will be priceless.
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For I'm fully convinced that in this one verse alone, Jesus never revealed to this woman nor anyone in the Bible the concept of:
agency (Abraham 3:25)
progression ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 348, 349, 365)
conditional forgiveness (The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp 324-325)
It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you.
the potential to become a god (Gospel Principles page 9)
Everything that he does is to help his children become like him-a god. He has said, "Behold, this is my work and my glory-to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39)
Good grief, man. You're telling me that "in this one verse alone," certain things are not taught. You're absolutely right. Certain things are not taught in that one verse alone. That's one verse in the Bible, for crying out loud. What about the rest of the Bible? By the way, every single one of these four doctrines can be supposed biblically. You didn't even need to bother quoting from non-doctrinal LDS sources to make your point.
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We both know why you oppose the 5 Solas as being the narrow path that I spoke of earlier.
Well, I know that I oppose the first three solas because they are (1) false, (2) false, and (3) false. I don't oppose the last two solas at all.
Last edited by Katzpur; 09-23-2013 at 06:53 PM..
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