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How so? If we are born sinners, and aren't among the ones God has chosen to extend His grace to, we aren't sinning by choice. We sin because we are powerless not to.
I believe that was Martin Luther's bondage of the will...
This is where you have a disconnect. You said there is only one choice, the choice that God gives. Man never had a choice to not sin.
To say God is not responsible is absurd and ignoring the facts.
Did God know Adam would sin?
Did God intend Adam would sin?
of course God intended Adam to sin. Some people act as if we can surprise God by our actions. God is never surprised, Adam just did what he was made to do.
of course God intended Adam to sin. Some people act as if we can surprise God by our actions. God is never surprised, Adam just did what he was made to do.
Exactly, and then according to Calvinism:
God intended Adam to sin, and all mankind to sin, and then casts man into eternal torture for doing exactly as God intended.
You seem to be saying two different things here. Do we have choice, or not?
We have a free will and make the right or wrong choices. Predestination means God is above time, He sees it all and knows who makes the right or wrong choices. And the best choice is to love God, the one He foreknows, He predestines, sanctifies and glorifies. No human can know and look into the heart, but God can. Salvation is of the Lord. The disciples were shocked and asked, who than can be saved and Jesus answered: By man it is not possible (our own affords), but by God or with God are all things possible.
This is where you have a disconnect. You said there is only one choice, the choice that God gives. Man never had a choice to not sin.
To say God is not responsible is absurd and ignoring the facts.
Did God know Adam would sin?
Did God intend Adam would sin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torpedos
of course God intended Adam to sin. Some people act as if we can surprise God by our actions. God is never surprised, Adam just did what he was made to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Exactly, and then according to Calvinism:
God intended Adam to sin, and all mankind to sin, and then casts man into eternal torture for doing exactly as God intended.
And this is justice. And this is a God of love.
Really.
Really?
You are making this more complex than it is, my brothers. If you had children . . . did you know they would err growing up? Did you intend for them to err growing up? That is what growing and learning is all about . . . growing and learning! Calling "error" (missing the mark) "sin" (original or whatever) and blaming us or God is just man's foolishness and lack of understanding.
I can't disagree with a single point of them. Maybe Limited Atonement....but I'm not sure that I'd consider it something to divide over.
The issue of Calvinism usually comes down to the discussion of predestination and election. About 7-8 years ago I called it a heresy. Then I did a deeper study of the Bible and realized it is true. I don't follow Calvin--I follow what the Bible says.
I don't know how you can disagree with the doctrine of limited atonement! Christ's atonement is always effectual for every single one of his people. If that were not so then his sacrifice would have been totally in vain for the vast majority of Adam's race. That would fly right in the face of many things we know for sure about God. He is all powerful and that means his plans always come to fruition. There is never any maybes about them. He is all knowing and we are told he chose his people from eternity. It follows that those he chose he provides atonement for and no one else. It's a little unusual that you can agree with the doctrine of irresistible grace and not the limited atonement. More commonly it's the former and not the later that causes doubts. Those two doctrines logically go together and complement each other. Those who will, by the decree of God be atoned for are irresistibly drawn by that same decree, {Grace} in order for that atonement to become effectual for God's chosen one.
People general have a huge lack of understanding about what John Calvin did. All he did really, was to organize and lay out in a logical order the doctrines taught in the bible. There is very little difference between the ideas expressed by Calvin and St. Augustine. Calvin just organized the Theology more systematically.
Romans talks about it heavily...And it is throughout the bible...
Sorry, Richard, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. We're obviously not only interpreting the scriptures differently, we are evidently focusing on different passages. Just as you say predestination is taught throughout the Bible, I would say that free will is taught throughout the Bible.
Sorry, Richard, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. We're obviously not only interpreting the scriptures differently, we are evidently focusing on different passages. Just as you say predestination is taught throughout the Bible, I would say that free will is taught throughout the Bible.
Free will is taught as you say throughout the bible but one has to understand certain concepts of what free will is, in order for it to make any sense. It's also important to understand it as it pertains to the rest of scripture.
In my own fairly extensive experience, I would say the biggest misunderstanding regarding "Free will" is not understanding the obvious and logical limits placed upon it. It's this misunderstanding that more than any other I have come across causes people major problems in understanding scripture.
The "Free will" given to man by our Creator is only free to operate within it's own nature. There is no conflict between predestination and free will when one has a good grasp of this fact. We can not act in any way spiritual toward God because according to the bible we are "Dead" spiritually and at enmity with God by inheriting this Adamic nature. We are as able to change this nature by our own desire as well as a mouse is capable of changing himself into an elephant. Those who God has predestined for his glory he "regenerates". Without regeneration we will just remain in our Adamic nature, separated from God and lost. When Jesus told Nicodemus, "You MUST be born again", do you think he was telling the man that he himself must do something to attain to this condition? Of course not. Nicodemus himself said, "It's impossible", and he was correct in that assertion. For him or anyone else it is impossible. How did Jesus answer this? He said that anything is possible FOR GOD!!!!
Free will is taught as you say throughout the bible but one has to understand certain concepts of what free will is, in order for it to make any sense. It's also important to understand it as it pertains to the rest of scripture.
Your mistake is in thinking that it is free will that is misunderstood. When you understand that every reference to "predestined" in the bible is in regard to a class of response to the gospel and not to individuals everything else falls into place.
As far as your limitations of free will according to our nature, that is true and the "call" or "drawing" of the Lord is the presentation of the information required to make a choice, whether it is rejected or accepted.
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