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Fair enough. I would take it a bit further than you, maybe, but I think we're basically on the same page.
Again, I agree. We must be willing to learn by doing, though. And saying, "I'm saved. I'm perfect," just doesn't cut it in my book (not that this is what I'm hearing you say).
Well, see, this is the problem with agreeing. The people you would get along with the most, you have the shortest conversations with.
FYI I would take it further too, but I save that chat for those who can have that chat.
Originally Posted by twin.spin In the OT and the NT the present tense word "be" is the command used
Leviticus 19:2 (and others like)
“Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them:
‘Beholy because I, the Lord your God, am holy."
Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Fatheris perfect. God commands the present tense "be" because he is in the present tense "be".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst
Could be a present future tense. Making it a command, not an observation.
Example, "Be obedient to your teacher", spoken before the kid is at school yet.
I should have stated:
God commands the present tense "be perfect" because he is in the present tense "is perfect".
It's borderline double talk to say "a present future tense"
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Originally Posted by twin.spin People who are law orientated \ works orientated need to understand the seriousness of the failure rate of less than 100% compliance if they attempt to include themselves in fulfilling the "be" command.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst
That doesn't even make sense to me as it is written. What are you trying to say? Christian maturity COMES ONLY through works. You can't just ignore that you are saved to do His works, and ignore them. And scripture says, POINT BLANK, Christian maturity comes through works. there is no fancy word play that can avoid that.
POINT BLANK scriptures teaches:
" know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ."Galatians 2:16
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29
or in other words " faith \ belief alone in Jesus" is the work God requires
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”John 6:28
If you noticed ... they asked in the plural "works" and what must "we do",
Jesus didn't answer by saying:
the work you must do is to believe and do works to prove yourself worthy over time
the work you must do is pass being tested and that eventually someday you might get that assuredness that God forgives you
the work you must do is make your decision to believe
You aren't biblically PERFECT just because you declare you are saved and made an altar call and had the magic bath, if that is what you are claiming... That isn't supported in scripture either.
This indicates that you do not know what being BIBLICALLY PERFECT is.
We don't declare ourselves PERFECT ...............
We don't make ourselves PERFECT by our works ................
God makes us Holy
Leviticus 21:8
.... I the Lord am holy—I who make you holy.
Deuteronomy 7:6For you are a people holy to the Lord your God.
The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
Ezekiel 16:14 And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Jesus makes us PERFECT
Hebrews 10:14
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
You aren't biblically PERFECT just because you ... had the magic bath,... That isn't supported in scripture either.
It is not surprising that you'd have contempt for baptism.
People who are works focused will make coming to faith a "work" ... so it's only natural that they despise baptism.
However scriptures does indeed
Ephesians 5:25-27
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by thewashing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
1 Peter 3:21 and this water (referring to the water of Noah's time is the symbolization being referred to )symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Originally Posted by twin.spin So for that crowd ... I tell the law \ work-righteous that yes "I am perfect"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst
I'm probably off base up there, but I really don't understand where you are at. Sorry.
To people like yourself or like Katzpur who stated:
Quote:
And that is precisely what it is. No one "becomes a Christian," and is instantaneously "perfect." If perfect means mature, fully developed, lacking nothing, then it absolutely must be the result of a growth process. Anyone who says "I am perfect RIGHT NOW" is kidding himself.
I will reply with:
yes when one "becomes a Christian ... they are instantaneously "perfect"
Hebrews 10:14
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy
Colossians 3"14--And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
I haven't looked but I'm guessing charity is Agapao??? heck I better check.... hang on... errrr you won't wait, I'm waiting, brb, errr you won't know that either, sigh.
Okies, (learned a lesson yesterday... ) yes, it's agapao, which is usually love in the newer translations, KJV did a great job of using charity though. I vote for Jim's book on that one word....
The thing about agapao, to be agapao it requires action. You can't have agapao without the demonstration. You have works, as james discussed, when you have agapao. All the examples Christ gave required works. People try to denigrate works, to the point it's almost a sin, in some denoms, to seek out to do good works. Without the works/charity/agapao you never grow as a Christian, you never learn how to love, and without love, you are NOT in HIM and HE is not in YOU. Or so John wrote. That verse was very well placed. I've never put it together in this study that I can remember before. TY.
Being perfect is walking in obedience from God's perspective .
Born of the Spirit Believers (can) have the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, giving the capability it be obedient =perfect.
Merely walking in the knowledge of scriptures alone is not obedience ,the Holy Spirit is not in charge.
Need His guidance , abandon your own guidance, and that of other men , ask for His guidance . when it is received act on His guidance.=obedience .
Knowing the things Jesus taught is a good foundation, but the secret of perfection is in the growing relationship with Him, choosing a dependency on Him .
Not just for your emergencies ,but in every day life.
You would be amazed in how much God is interested in you, the more you are interested in Him.
Being perfect is not an option but a command .
It is like a target, but the center of the target is determined not by you, nor by an other man, but by God.
Men love to readjust the target after they have already made their shots but you and I know that it is cheating .
That is what men do with the scriptures, rather than desperately seeking after God .
You knew there was a difference when first you chose to have God's influence, but what happened , men started telling you all the things you gota do or not do, in place of instructing you into a deeper relationship.
Those before them did the same thing, watering down Jesus gospel because they couldn't do it as it stands in their own wisdom and advanced knowledge of God's word, choosing Paul's gospel of grace compromising God's righteousness with sin(Jesus did not teach).
This ahead of Jesus gospel of accountability and obedience via the Holy Spirit, where perfection is found.
Jesus said it is a narrow way ,the only way to know the bulls eye is to listen to God ,because in heaven ,God is in charge not man . Do you remember the Lord's prayer ?
BTW great job on the formatting. If it takes me more than two hours I'm turning mine in as incomplete. but all the words will be there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Originally Posted by twin.spin In the OT and the NT the present tense word "be" is the command used
Leviticus 19:2 (and others like)
“Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them:
‘Beholy because I, the Lord your God, am holy."
Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Fatheris perfect. God commands the present tense "be" because he is in the present tense "be".
I should have stated:
God commands the present tense "be perfect" because he is in the present tense "is perfect".
It's borderline double talk to say "a present future tense"
__________________________________________________ ________________________
It was a play on words for IMPERATIVE sentence. NOT a present tense as you put it, but a command that you are to be that. BE WET, means get in the water and stay there. You grossly oversimplified the most complex verb in the ENglish language. That's not bordertalk, it's just silly.
================================
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Originally Posted by twin.spin People who are law orientated \ works orientated need to understand the seriousness of the failure rate of less than 100% compliance if they attempt to include themselves in fulfilling the "be" command.
POINT BLANK scriptures teaches:
" know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ."Galatians 2:16
Do you need me to hold your hand and help you learn the difference in works, and works of the law? Gal 5:6 you just ignore it? Last parable in matt 25 you don't care that the ones that were RIGHT WITH GOD were the one that did the works. The works didn't get them there, the works are a visual proof they had what gets them there, faith, which grace comes through.
Lesson, you are saved to do works. WORKS of the law, are specific activities to a specific set of rules. The works you are matured through have unprocessed fertilizer to do with works of the law.
============================
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29
>>>>>>> one of the top five most abused verses in scripture. It doesn't OMIT the 8.5 million instances that you are to do works in the NT. <<<<<
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
or in other words " faith \ belief alone in Jesus" is the work God requires
>>>>>>>> if you don't have works, you don't have faith<<<<<<
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”John 6:28
If you noticed ... they asked in the plural "works" and what must "we do",
Jesus didn't answer by saying:
the work you must do is to believe and do works to prove yourself worthy over time
the work you must do is pass being tested and that eventually someday you might get that assuredness that God forgives you
the work you must do is make your decision to believe
This indicates that you do not know what being BIBLICALLY PERFECT is.
Ironic, no? The premise your refutation is based on was taken out in the first paragraph. There is a difference in works of the law, and works. You ignore scripture ALL OVER THE PLACE to support your position. You hold a position that demands contradiction in scripture. My way, there isn't a contradiction. You have matt 25 as Jesus was an idiot and took the wrong group. You have gal 5:6 as an aberration in Paul's teaching, YOu have the first half of the book of james removed from scripture. You take a black sharpie over eph 2:10.
They all fit my way. I like my way. I don't feel qualified to rewrite the boook, so I work hard at understanding what it tells me, not telling it what it should be saying...
===============================
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
We don't declare ourselves PERFECT ...............
>>>>> no one said anything about declaring yourself perfect. Who has declared themselves perfect? I missed that. In fact, in Phil 3 right before adddresses himself and the others who ARE PERFECT, he tells them they should keep the mindset of one who isn't perfect yet. <<<<<<
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
We don't make ourselves PERFECT by our works ................
>>>>> No one said that either. HOWEVER the Bible says GOD makes you perfect through your works. GOD changes your mind and your heart and removes that sinful nature from your humanness. That's what scripture says. BUT it happens through your works. It's not the works that do it.<<<<<<<
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
God makes us Holy
Leviticus 21:8
.... I the Lord am holy—I who make you holy.
Exactly as I said it. Nice to see you coming around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Deuteronomy 7:6For you are a people holy to the Lord your God.
The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
Unless you are Jewish, this is an irrelevant verse. There is no Jew in Christ's Church. No Gentile either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Ezekiel 16:14 And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Ummm seriously what does how the Jewish nation LOOKS have to do with this conversation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Jesus makes us PERFECT
Hebrews 10:14
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Well, doh! the discussion is HOW he does it, not IF he does it. HOWEVER if it is HIM THAT DOES IT, as we seem to agree on, why are you so concerned about what WE can do up there? Make up your mind, be consistent. You can't complain that WE can't do it, but praise HIM for doing it. So it appears our conflict is really on your confusion with works of the law, vs works God saved you to as His instrument TOOL of His righteousness. You want to avoid the works you were saved to do, but Matt 25's last parable says that leaves you out of the life with the shepherd. So, I feel obligated, to try to find a way to say it right so you'll stop bowing up defensively first, but read and understand first, because...... well...... it's important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
It is not surprising that you'd have contempt for baptism.
People who are works focused will make coming to faith a "work" ... so it's only natural that they despise baptism.
It's not surprising you think you can see into my head and what I think. Unfortunately this makes you look silly. I have no issue with baptism, I have problems with people thinking if they have a baptism and make an altar call they are living with God forever. That's such a ....... well... over simplified job to describe a start with a relationship with God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
However scriptures does indeed
Ephesians 5:25-27
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by thewashing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
irrelevant to the conversation. If it was a discussion with someone saying you can work your ay to heaven it might, but probably not even be appropriate there. No one is denying salvation comes through Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
1 Peter 3:21 and this water (referring to the water of Noah's time is the symbolization being referred to )symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Originally Posted by twin.spin So for that crowd ... I tell the law \ work-righteous that yes "I am perfect"
I have no idea what this is here for. I'm only responding so you won't say I ignored it. This has nothing to do with Christian maturity, but with salvation. No one has questioned how you are saved. You are just ranting here, like you rolled out some pat answers, preprepared for people who think you can work your way to heaven and just cluster dumped them on page, (albeit with great formatting). They do not apply.
You need to stop wanting to object so fast and understand what was said before you reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
To people like yourself or like Katzpur who stated:
I will reply with:
yes when one "becomes a Christian ... they are instantaneously "perfect"
Paul said otherwise. Why were some milk and some meat? Why did he write letters to the imperfect, but spoke differently to the perfect, but both were saved and in the Church? You are just on a rant. I'm sorry you misunderstood. But you are derailed here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Hebrews 10:14
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy
See the BEING MADE HOLY???? Here NASB...
Hbr 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Sanctified means set apart already, right? So this is someone who has arrived, not some one in the journey.
Rom 6:22
But now having been freed from sin *THIS IS SALVATION, being atoned for, freed from sin.
and enslaved to God, *Vs 16 shows that this references obedience to God. And as enslaved, it means you have become obedient past tense, mr. tense.
you derive your benefit, *You get a benefit that leads to sanctification. Sanctification comes well after atonement here. Do you think Paul was whack?
fnresulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
At atonement, or in your parlance, "salvation" you are set apart, looked upon as a different person. (being set apart is being sanctified, but it's a different sanctification, same as the ark of the covenant was set apart/sanctified, but it's a different sanctification, lots of things can be set apart from one thing or another.
When sanctification is finished you are no longer just looked upon differently, YOU ARE MADE DIFFERENT. Here he has CHANGED your heart. The Sinful nature is removed, col 2:11,
The Spirit indwells then, Romans 8:9
If you are like me, and still have that sinful nature/flesh at work in you, you better admit that you are not yet indwelled by the Spirit of God, and start taking it more serious. It doesn't do any good to claim you have something only God can give if you don't have it yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Hebrews 10:14 has no mention of:
my works
my obedience to the law
my proving myself worthy
my result of a growth process
my time of testing
Yeah, neither did anything I said. Do you have this out of your system yet?
Please take the time to understand what I said so you can address that and not beat up poor innocent strawmen all day long.
Last edited by Xian Catalyst; 10-03-2013 at 06:52 PM..
Reason: formatting
Being perfect is walking in obedience from God's perspective .
No it's not. I've shown, and it's being ignored, (not on purpose I'm sure) that perfection is indicative of love. The verse I posted said that precisely.
It's not about SIN and OBEDIENCE. That isn't the Gospel message.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh
Born of the Spirit Believers (can) have the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, giving the capability it be obedient =perfect.
Gal 5:16 says it's the spirit that keeps them obedient, not the believer's ability to obey. I'm sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh
Merely walking in the knowledge of scriptures alone is not obedience ,the Holy Spirit is not in charge.
If he is in charge you can NOT give into the temptations of the flesh. NOT you will most of the time not give in, but you can NOT give in. That means that 99% of the people screaming they are born again believers indwelled by the spirit are WRONG, or the Bible is wrong.
It's not about what you know, it's about how you live and how you are changed.
Please take the time to understand what I said so you can address that and not beat up poor innocent strawmen all day long.
As much as you want to think you're being misunderstood ... you're not.
You cite Matt 25 the last part as being a parable and as Jesus was an idiot and took the wrong group.
Apparently you're referring to Matthew 25:31-46 as a parable? ... Yes or no
As much as you want to think you're being misunderstood ... you're not.
You cite Matt 25 the last part as being a parable and as Jesus was an idiot and took the wrong group.
Errrr, no I did not. You are saying works are not something, in fact it's bad, pertaining to salvation. I merely showed you that Jesus was such a big ole dummy, HE didn't know that, in HIS parable, the ones that did the work were the ones that went to heaven. I went into detail with this. How did you misunderstand it so far off base? That must have required effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Apparently you're referring to Matthew 25:31-46 as a parable? ... Yes or no
Sheep and Goats. Both knew the shepherd. The ones that did the works went on.
So, as that stands in opposition to your words so far, explain why they were rewarded for their works and went with the shepherd, but the others, who also knew the shepherd did not?
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