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In the OT "an eye for an eye" WAS a mitigation of what generally occurred in ancient times. If someone stole your pig---you went out and stole five of his cows. If someone broke your son's finger, you went out and broke his son's arm.
So their was definitely an increase in the morality of men dealing with one another when the Deuteronomic Laws were written.
However, when Jesus came along, He was saying "that's not enough." Go further. It's time for man's morality to grow further.
He did that with adultery--refraining from the act is not enough--it must include harnessing one's thoughts as well. Jesus expected more than the OT was giving.
But take a look at our "christian" society. Show sex in a movie and it is deemed anti-Christ. But movies are filled with vengeance and payback that goes far beyond what the original "evil" was. Look at our justice system that believes longer and longer sentences actually work. I believe it was in 1994 that some state was considering trying a 14 year old girl as an adult for selling marijuana for the third time--if they had she would have been confined to prison for the rest of her life!!
So the LAW may have been adequate for the circumstances of an earlier day, but Jesus expected us to grow out of that LAW and into a new law based on love. It's just that no matter how "Christian" we might wish to appear and brag about to the rest of the world, most christians love violence when it is being meted out on whoever they currently consider "evil."
It's no wonder the rest of the world is disgusted with our brand of Christianity which is one of convenience that rarely prevents us from acting with violence behind the cloak of the State or the Nation.
We are what we repeatedly do, so excellence is not an act, but a habit..."An eye for an eye" was never about vengence or retribution, it was monetary...In other words, if you took the sight of another then your sight would be required of you, you would be required to be his eyes in order for him to make parnasah [livelihood], if he made so much money at a certain job, then you would have to recompense him for his loss, monetarily...Your sight would not be taken from you, but you would be required to make your livelihood and also his...
Jesus abolished many Old Testament commandments because they were only commandments of men. For example the law that commanded "eye for eye and tooth for tooth". Jesus abolished this law. And He annulled it because they were not true law of God but precept of men.
But he said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to uphold it...Be also said that not one jot or tittle shall be stricken from the law until heaven and earth pass away...
I listened to enyas music.
Very beautiful.
But i couldnt make out the lyrics.
I think I've stayed for the last time, goodbye
Hope is so much closer to beauty than sorrow
I think I'll leave and leave self pity to die
Reflection is always brighter than shadow
Please come closer
Cause I don't even touch you anymore
Please see I'm walking in to the eye of the storm
And I'll still come out loving you even more
Love is in the air tonight
So just breathe
You made sure the atmosphere was thick tonight
So this is where it begins and where it ends
With a crack in a dark sky piercing light
Please come closer
Cause my heart doesn't touch yours anymore
Please see I'm walking into the eye of the storm
And I'll still come out loving you even more
Love is in the air tonight so just breathe
Breathe my spirit breathe
Love is in the air tonight so just breathe
Breathe my spirit breathe
leave, leave now and don't look back
leave, leave now and don't you look back
Please come closer
Cause I don't even touch you anymore
Please see I'm walking in to the eye of the storm
And I'll still come out loving you even more
Please come closer
Cause my heart doesn't touch yours anymore
Please see I'm walking in to the eye of the storm
And I'll still come out loving you even more.
We are what we repeatedly do, so excellence is not an act, but a habit..."An eye for an eye" was never about vengence or retribution, it was monetary...In other words, if you took the sight of another then your sight would be required of you, you would be required to be his eyes in order for him to make parnasah [livelihood], if he made so much money at a certain job, then you would have to recompense him for his loss, monetarily...Your sight would not be taken from you, but you would be required to make your livelihood and also his...
You don't know what you are talking about, and I am not trying to insult you, you just don't know anything about the laws or the covenants, a lot of people don't. The New testament is a Jewish book, not a Gentile book, it is a book that leads Gentiles into Judaism, and when you show a lawless Jesus, all you do is prove to the Jew that Jesus could not have been the Messiah..........
I do not show a Jesus without Law, but the opposite. What I say is that Jesus taught us the true Law that God had given from forever and forever.
Jesus said he had not come to abolish the Law and the prophets, but the Law and the prophets is the Law of Christ, which is the true Law that was given by God in the time of Moses.
The Law that Jesus came not to abolish, from which shall pass not one jot or one tittle, is the Law of the Gospel, which is the true Law of God. But Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:31-48, Matthew 12:1-8, John 5:8-11, John 5:16-18, John 8:3-11 and the whole context of the Gospel).
The Gospel says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.... one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" (Matthew 5:17-20) .
In these words are based many religions to tell us that Jesus Christ came not to abolish the commandments of the Old Testament, but that is a mistake because these gospel words do not refer to the law of the Old Testament, because Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament, as we see in Matthew 5: 21-48 and other parts of the Gospel.
The words of Jesus Christ in this famous verse (Matthew 5: 17), which tells us that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, refers to the true Law of God, which is the Law that Jesus Christ himself taught us in the Gospel. Jesus Christ teaches that the law and the prophets that He did not come to abolish is the following:
"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12) .
Therefore, this is the law that God gave to Israel because Jesus Christ himself says that "this is the law and the prophets". This is the law that remains in effect, that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ("Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets"). And of this law did pass "not one jot not one tittle", of the Law that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel and that is the true Law that God gave to Moses.
I do not show a Jesus without Law, but the opposite. What I say is that Jesus taught us the true Law that God had given from forever and forever.
Jesus said he had not come to abolish the Law and the prophets, but the Law and the prophets is the Law of Christ, which is the true Law that was given by God in the time of Moses.
The Law that Jesus came not to abolish, from which shall pass not one jot or one tittle, is the Law of the Gospel, which is the true Law of God. But Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:31-48, Matthew 12:1-8, John 5:8-11, John 5:16-18, John 8:3-11 and the whole context of the Gospel).
The Gospel says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.... one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" (Matthew 5:17-20) .
In these words are based many religions to tell us that Jesus Christ came not to abolish the commandments of the Old Testament, but that is a mistake because these gospel words do not refer to the law of the Old Testament, because Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament, as we see in Matthew 5: 21-48 and other parts of the Gospel.
The words of Jesus Christ in this famous verse (Matthew 5: 17), which tells us that He did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, refers to the true Law of God, which is the Law that Jesus Christ himself taught us in the Gospel. Jesus Christ teaches that the law and the prophets that He did not come to abolish is the following:
"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12) .
Therefore, this is the law that God gave to Israel because Jesus Christ himself says that "this is the law and the prophets". This is the law that remains in effect, that Jesus Christ came not to abolish ("Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets"). And of this law did pass "not one jot not one tittle", of the Law that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel and that is the true Law that God gave to Moses.
It is seriously hard to understand what you are trying to say, you say something and then contradict it, Jesus was speaking of the literal laws of Moses when he spoke of the jots and tittles, that was why he said it the way he said it, he wasn't referring to some fantasy laws that are not recorded, he is WITHOUT A DOUBT SPEAKING OF THE LITERAL LAWS RECORDED WITH ALL ITS JOTS AND TITTLES.THE LAWS OF MOSES AS HE SAYS,'' THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.''
Just the fact that he phrased it as he did leaves no doubts to what he was speaking of and we CERTAINLY don't have to rely on this one scripture to prove the facts of Jesus and how he supported loving and keeping the laws of Moses, Jesus goes out of his way to show those who don't keep tne laws and who teach others not to keep the laws of Moses. You can try and change the meanings of what Jesus said, and you can wish all day long upon it, but the facts are the facts and Jesus shows us what happens to the iniquitors who disrespect the law, they are sent to outer darkness because they don't know the law, and thus they don't know Messiah.
Liars were paid to tell a lie against Stephen as if Jesus and all his disciples were teaching Jews not to keep the laws of Moses, LIARS killed Stephen, and they kept trying to kill Paul and Acts 21 proves these liars to be liars, and how they were telling the most HEINOUS EVIL lies against Paul saying that Paul was teaching against the laws of Moses.
Those liars brought Paul into court time and time again where they were about to kill Paul BECAUSE OF LIARS telling lies against Paul until he had to prove those liars were lying.
Are you ininuating the same thing?
That somehow Messiah came and his disciples were teaching disrespect and lawlessness?
If you had been there, you would be trying to prove how Jesus was lawless and so he couldn't have been the Messiah, and if you show a lawless Paul who taught a Jew not to keep the customs of Moses, all you do is prove Paul is a false prophet who deserved death.
Which is it?
Do you prove Jesus and all of his disciples were enemies of God and his laws, enemies of Moses who abolished the laws and brought in lawlessness?
Let's take it. from another direction, you think Jesus has another law that you neither know or are able to even write down but somehow there is another law that Jesus is speaking of?
WHERE O WHERE IS THIS LAW?
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO GIVE ME THE LAWS OF JESUS JUST ANYTIME YOU GET READY LOL, WHERE IS IT?
Fine, so we can take each and every law of Moses and find us a hidden law of truth, that's fine, but how will you find the laws of Jesus if you don't understand and love the laws of Moses?
In order to find a hidden law of Jesus, it cannot contradict the law of Moses, and in order to establish a seperate law of Jesus, you FIRST have to accept the laws of Moses. Were the laws of sacrifice about animals? Are the laws of oxen about oxen, NO.
The laws are writen for our sake but if we don't love the laws of Moses enougn to study them day and night for decades, then how in the world would somebody be able to expect to produce the hidden laws of Jesus?
If you don't love the laws, you will NEVER be able to read it, if the laws of Moses are not on your lips day and night because you love God and his ways, how would you ever expect to find what is hidden if you cannot accept what is written? If what is written in the laws of Moses is evil and unrighteous, tnen why in the world would somebody look for righteousness and what is good amongst the evil and the unrighteous.
If you begin with the mentality of the laws of Moses being wrong, you sure aint going to find the beauty and trutn of the hidden laws of Messiah..
The law says that you shall not commit murder, but the truth of the law says that you are a murderer just be being angry with your brother. The law says you shall not commit adultery but the beauty and truth of the law is that you have already committed adultery when you have just lusted after a woman for a couple seconds.
I WOULD BE MORE THAN WILLING TO RECIEVE THE HIDDEN LAWS OF JESUS, WHERE O WERE ARE THEY?
For Christians who are biased against the laws of Moses, THERE IS NO LAW OF JESUS.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 09-06-2017 at 03:21 PM..
It is seriously hard to understand what you are trying to say, you say something and then contradict it, Jesus was speaking of the literal laws of Moses when he spoke of the jots and tittles, that was why he said it the way he said it, he wasn't referring to some fantasy laws that are not recorded, he is WITHOUT A DOUBT SPEAKING OF THE LITERAL LAWS RECORDED WITH ALL ITS JOTS AND TITTLES.THE LAWS OF MOSES AS HE SAYS,'' THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.''
Just the fact that he phrased it as he did leaves no doubts to what he was speaking of and we CERTAINLY don't have to rely on this one scripture to prove the facts of Jesus and how he supported loving and keeping the laws of Moses, Jesus goes out of his way to show those who don't keep tne laws and who teach others not to keep the laws of Moses. You can try and change the meanings of what Jesus said, and you can wish all day long upon it, but the facts are the facts and Jesus shows us what happens to the iniquitors who disrespect the law, they are sent to outer darkness because they don't know the law, and thus they don't know Messiah.
Liars were paid to tell a lie against Stephen as if Jesus and all his disciples were teaching Jews not to keep the laws of Moses, LIARS killed Stephen, and they kept trying to kill Paul and Acts 21 proves these liars to be liars, and how they were telling the most HEINOUS EVIL lies against Paul saying that Paul was teaching against the laws of Moses.
Those liars brought Paul into court time and time again where they were about to kill Paul BECAUSE OF LIARS telling lies against Paul until he had to prove those liars were lying.
Are you ininuating the same thing?
That somehow Messiah came and his disciples were teaching disrespect and lawlessness?
If you had been there, you would be trying to prove how Jesus was lawless and so he couldn't have been the Messiah, and if you show a lawless Paul who ever taught a Jew not to keep the customs of Moses, all you do is prove Paul is a false prophet who deserved death.
Which is it?
Do you prove Jesus and all of his disciples were enemies of God and his laws, enemies lf Moses who abolished the laws and brought in lawlessness?
Let's take it. from another direction, you think Jesus has another law that you neither know or are able to even write down but somehow there is another law that Jesus is speaking of?
WHERE O WHERE IS THIS LAW?
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO GIVE ME THE LAWS OF JESUS JUST ANYTIME YOU GET READY LOL, WHERE IS IT?
Fine, so we can take each and every law of Moses and find us a hidden law of truth, that's fine, but how will you find the laws of Jesus if you don't understand and love the laws of Moses?
In order to find a hidden law of Jesus, it cannot contradict the law of Moses, and in order to establish a seperate law of Jesus, you FIRST have to accept the laws of Moses. Were the laws of sacrifice about animals? Are the laws of oxen about oxen, NO.
The laws are writen for our sakebut kf we don't love the laws of Moses enougn to study them day and night for decades, then how in the world would somebody be able to expect to produce the hidden laws of Jesus?
If you don't love the laws, you will NEVER be able to read it, if the laws of Moses are not on your lips day and night because you love God and his ways, how would you ever expect to find what is hidden if you cannot accept whag is written? If what is written in the laws of Moses is evil and unrighteous, tnen why in the world would somebody look for righgeous and what is good amongst the evil and the unrighteous.
If you begin with the mentality of the laws of Moses being wrong, you sure aint going to find the beauty and trutn of the hidden laws of Messiah..
The law says that you shall not commit murder, but the truth of the law says that you are a murderer just be being angry with your brother. The law says you shall not commit adultery but the beauty and truth of the law is that you have already committed adultery when you have just lusted after a woman for a couple seconds.
I WOULD BE MORE THAN WILLING TO RECIEVE THE HIDDEN LAWS OF JESUS, WHERE O WERE ARE THEY?
For Christians who are biased against the laws of Moses, THERE IS NO LAW OF JESUS.
You don't know what you are talking about, and I am not trying to insult you, you just don't know anything about the laws or the covenants, a lot of people don't. The New testament is a Jewish book, not a Gentile book, it is a book that leads Gentiles into Judaism, and when you show a lawless Jesus, all you do is prove to the Jew that Jesus could not have been the Messiah.
I am not sure what makes a person defy historical fact, and the historical fact is that Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism for over 100 years until Christianity ended, and then a new religion began and took the same name as Christianity. They took the temples of all the high holy pagan Gods, they converted to all the Sabbaths and Holy days of all the pagan Gods of Rome and Babylon and Egypt, and they called these gods,'' Jesus,'' They stand in Rome with an obelisk dedicated to a walking God but not Jesus, this God walked on the earth in the days of Jesus and an obelisk was raised at the temple in such an abomination that couldn't even be imagined because an obelisk represents a Phallus, and this of another God at the Temple of God.
Jerusalem was cursed by this NEW Christianity and Rome became the new Holy place to worship on the Sabbaths and feasts of a Babylonian Messiah named Tammuz.
Although the whole book of Revelation is written to teach the Pagan Christian, they still don't get that they are the ones in Babylon keeping the ways of the Babylonian Messiah. Christianity is the only people in the world who are keeping the ways of the Messiah of Babylon alive and yet they don't even know they worship Tammuz, although they keep everything that teaches his resurrection, they call him Jesus as if Jesus was the Babylonian Messiah while they keep all his ways.
These new Christians wiped the first Christianity off the face of the planet, there have been no Gentile under the covenant of Jesus ever since the worship system of God was made illegal.
Porque 77, how in the world do you figure yourself in the religion of Jesus?
Just because you say ,'' Jesus?''
Jesus said that whoever keeps the laws of Moses and teaches others to keep the laws of Moses would be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Now you say that you believe in Jesus and you are in his religion, but you can't even admit the fact that Jesus was correct.
Your mentality would have to prove Jesus incorrect, not to mention that Paul never stopped practicing Judaism. Paul was brought into court time and time again, it was a MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH, and each time Paul proved his innocence against liars who claimed that Paul was teaching Jews not to keep the laws of Moses and that he was speaking against Jerusalem.
Paul was in Judaism, and you are in a different religion?
Those liars who told the lie that got Stephen killed, they said Stephen was going around teaching Jews not to keep the laws of Moses, these liars had to be paid because they were liars. Stephen never taught Jews not to keep the laws of Moses, Paul never taught Jews not to keep the laws of Moses.
I am quite CONFIDENT that you will not admit the truth of what Jesus says, or the truth of what Acts 21 says, and you will continue to go on as if Christianity was not a sect of Judaism.
But here is Acts 21 AGAIN.
Is Paul a two faced lying coward who says one thing and lies to save his life in the midst of ten thousand Jewish believers who were all zealous of the law? Now Paul comes amongst them and PRETENDS he still loves the law?
Paul's Arrival at Jerusalem 17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Paul Seized in the Temple
27And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 28Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place:
PORQUE 77
How do you read Acts 21?
You pretend you didn't read it?
When Jesus says something, you just act as if you didn't hear it or that it doesn't exist?
How could you possibly read Acts 21 and then act as if I am supposed to take you serious?
How do you defy the words of Christ and expect me to take you serious?
You think the law is all about running around killing people?
I don't think so. The OT is full of alternative interpretations. And Jesus was all about choosing the right ones.
The following long excerpt is from Derek Flood's book, "Disarming Scripture: Cherry-Picking Liberals, Violence-Loving Conservatives, and Why We All Need to Learn to Read the Bible Like Jesus Did"
Quote:
Deuteronomy 28 declares that if the Israelites break the law, the Lord will inflict them with a host of physical and mental illnesses—their children will be abducted as slaves, their fiancees will be raped before their eyes—and crescendos with the gruesome declaration that even “the most tenderhearted man among you will have no compassion for his own brother, his beloved wife, and his surviving children” (v 54) because everyone will become insane cannibals eating their own family.
That’s what will happen “if you refuse to obey all the words of instruction that are written in this book, and if you do not fear the glorious and awesome name of the Lord your God” (v. 58). In this narrative if someone is sick or the victim of violence, it was assumed that they must have sinned. If someone was rich or successful in battle, it was assumed they must be obeying God.
In contrast to this, throughout the Psalms we find a protest against this narrative where the psalmist repeatedly laments that the wicked are prospering, calling out for God to rescue him from unjust suffering. Again, there is a connection here to violence in that the narrative of faithful questioning exemplified here involves specifically questioning and protesting the violence they are suffering as being unjust. The Psalmist is protesting against violence, as are Abraham and Moses.
Of all of these many voices of protest against divine-sanctioned violence found within the Hebrew Bible, the most powerful is the voice of Job who accuses God of injustice because of his suffering. “Though I cry, ‘Violence!’ I get no response; though I call for help, there is no justice” (Job 19: 7). While Job’s friends echo Deuteronomy 28, insisting that his sickness and suffering are deserved as a punishment for his sin, Job INSISTS on his innocence. Job’s testament of FAITHFUL questioning stands in contrast to his friends COUNTER-WITNESS OF UNQUESTIONING OBEDIENCE. PERHAPS THE MOST REMARKABLE PART OF THE BOOK OF JOB IS GOD'S ANSWER TO HIS FRIENDS, "I AM ANGRY WITH YOU AND YOUR TWO FRIENDS BECAUSE YOU have not spoken the TRUTH about ME, as my servant Job has." (Job 42: 7)
----------
This all illustrates the fact that rather than finding a single narrative throughout the Old Testament, we instead repeatedly encounter these conflicting perspectives within the Hebrew canon: One narrative states that suffering and violence are just and deserved, the other protests and argues against that narrative, calling it unjust.
These competing narratives zig-zag back and forth throughout the Old Testament, cataloging an ongoing dispute. While the Psalms and Job confront and challenge the narrative of reward and punishment found in Deuteronomy 28, the prophets pick up on this theme again, announcing that the reason the Israelites are suffering famine, slavery, rape, and sickness is because they have sinned. If they will only repent, the prophets claim, all this would stop.
Jesus, while embracing the prophets’ priority of compassion over ritual, rejects their common tactic of blaming the victim, and instead acts to heal those who are sick, effectively undoing God’s supposed “judgment” on them. Jesus, in fact, does not associate sickness with God’s judgment at all, but with the kingdom of Satan, and thus acts to liberate people from its bondage, rather than upholding it as right and calling for repentance as the prophets do. Jesus therefore rejects the prophets’ claim that such judgment (sickness, suffering, etc.) is God’s work, and instead frames his healing ministry in terms of the kingdom of God advancing against Satan’s kingdom (cf. Lk 11: 17–20).
all emphasis mine
Jesus didn't uphold the OT majority opinion about God acting in retribution. He specifically spoke up for the minority opinion that was one of faithful questioning of that horrific view. And in the case of Job, God criticizes the majority view and accepts Job's view that God had NOT acted with justice. Yes, I know God spent some time asking Job who the heck he thinks he (Job) is. But, should we believe Chapters 38 through 41, when God tells us we're nothing, and that we have no right to question Him? Or should we believe Chapter 42, when God acknowledges that Job was right and settles the lawsuit? The God of Chapters 38 through 41 is petulant, arrogant, and wrong. The God of Chapter 42 is willing to correct His mistake. Also the God of Chapter 42 admits that the three friends are wrong. By punishing them, He seems to be conceding that, in fact, the wicked aren't always punished and the good aren't always rewarded.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 09-06-2017 at 07:09 PM..
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