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Okay y'all, let's rock. I'm tired of hearing people say "I don't know" when I ask questions about election... and when I say "people", I'm talking about pastors. These are people who really should know such things, and instead they claim that they don't.
I'll try to make my explanation brief for why I do not believe in election.
-First of all, man was not created holy. Man was created "in the image of God" but certainly not to the level of holiness of God. Were man holy, man could not have been corrupted by Satan in the Garden of Eden. Man's corruptibility proves that man was not created holy.
-Since man was not created holy, God had to have had His reasons for creating man so. He had it within His power to make man totally perfect, and also to make man unquestionably obedient to Him. There was no reason why man HAD to have been created with free will, and corruptibility, but God decided to make man that way anyway. The only logical reason why this happened was because God's purposes are better served by humans that have the choice of whether or not they will follow Him, than they would have been by humans that were essentially robot slaves.
-The reason for the above can be explained by how man was created in God's image. Being created in God's image means that we share certain attributes with God. That being the case, it can be said, conversely, that God shares certain attributes with humans. This is evinced all over the Bible. For example, God is emotional in many ways. He does not NEED human beings to execute any great plans of His... after all, this is the God that created over 100,000,000,000 galaxies just because He could. His power is infinite and He can do anything that humans can do, better than humans can. So why create humans? Answer: for RELATIONSHIP. Put colloquially, it's lonely at the top. This explains free will as well. A relationship only carries meaning if it is chosen by all parties to it. Think about this - I've read articles stating that there could be humanoid robots by 2050... robots that approximate humans in any way... robots that humans could even have relationships with, and marry. Wouldn't you think it was silly and ludicrous for a man to marry a robot, claim to be in love with a robot, etc? Most people would, for the very reason that it is a robot, and not a human being who is capable of making choices. There's no meaning in a relationship when you can plug your mate into a computer console and reprogram him/her to do your bidding anytime. That is more of a master-slave transactional situation than a relationship.
-Since God created man to have free choice, and to be in relationship with Him, it stands to reason that He must facilitate that relationship. Though God does indeed possess the power to know everything, see everything, etc... the only logical explanation for how He can still have relationships with humans in the way He wishes (as stated in His Word) is that He consciously chooses NOT to know everything. After all, if it is assumed that God always knows, and is always consciously aware of, what we're thinking and what we're going to say even before we say it, then it would stand to reason that there's no point to prayer. (I'll do another thread on this at some point.) Since God wants us to talk with Him, and since God rarely talks back in readily discernible ways like a human would if you were conversing with one, it stands to logic that God chooses to refuse foreknowledge of what we're thinking, sometimes at least, in the name of having a relationship with us. After all, though we may love the notion of knowing what someone else thinks all the time, would that not eventually create boredom because the two people would never have to communicate with each other to know what the other is thinking?
-Figuring that God consciously chooses NOT to know everything, this runs contrary to predestination. I'm finally going to say it - I DO NOT BELIEVE IN PREDESTINATION. I feel that every verse and passage quoted in the Bible by those who support predestination can easily be interpreted to mean something else, even without going into the original languages. Here's a good passage for you:
1 Timothy 2:3-6a "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people."
God wants ALL people to be saved. (Predestining some to hell runs totally against this.)
Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for ALL people. (Not just those predestined to heaven, or "the elect". His salvation is available to ALL.)
I could go on, but I choose not to. To give you an idea of why God would not want to know in advance who will accept His salvation and who will not, even if He could determine that, I ask you this. Is there any thrill / enjoyment / excitement in watching a new movie if you already know what happens and how it's going to end, before you watch it? How about reading a new book? Do you read the last chapter first? If you do, you have to admit, you lose a good bit of the excitement. Instead, it's much more enjoyable to indulge in such entertainment when it "draws you in"... keeping you hooked by making you want to know what happens next in the story. I've felt that myself. I have also known many a person who seems to be able to predict the ending of movies, stories, etc... my wife is one such person. They're never excited by anything whose ending they can predict. Where do you suppose the tendency to experience excitement comes from? Yes indeed, 'tis another aspect of God Himself. That's part of being made in God's image.
-The favorite verses quoted by those who believe in election are Romans 9:11-24. Here they are:
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' ' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
God didn't tell Rebekah that He would hate Esau and love Jacob. In Genesis He tells Rebekah that Esau, the elder twin, will serve Jacob, the younger twin... and He said this only when Rebekah asked what was going on inside her body.
God's purpose in election is "not by works, but by Him who calls" - meaning that we cannot get to Heaven of our own works... we must go through Him. God has chosen / called all of us, and if we're to answer that call, we must go through Him. We can't get there by working our way to Heaven, though we do have to do good works to prove that we have the faith necessary to get us there. Works by themselves won't do it, and faith without works is dead. So it is that works & faith together are what we need.
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." God is not saying, in this passage, that He will predestine some for heaven and some for hell - He is saying "Don't question what I do. I'm God, you're not, I'm going to do what I choose to do." But remember - 1 John 4:8 is the famous "God is love" verse. If God is love, God will not predestine some people to eternal damnation and punishment. Such is not loving. The only logical way this could be considered loving would be if hell were not punishment for some people... but there's no evidence in the Word attesting to how this condition could be possible.
It doesn't depend upon human desire or effort, but on God's mercy - I can rock with that. How many of you, as kids, tried to get your parents to reduce or remove punishments they'd levied upon you? Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. The argument could be made that if you just accepted it and never tried to get it reduced, you'd have had to deal with the whole thing anyway... and by making the effort, you effected the change. However, that is disproven when you consider the times that you failed to effect that change even through your effort. Your effort meant something but ultimately the decision was in the hands of your parents. So it is that your effort to get into God's good graces means something, but the authority for the decision rests entirely with God.
"Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " - We shouldn't do this, though most of us have. But this doesn't ask about an eternal destiny. It asks about a present condition. "Why did you make me [short, tall, fat, thin, a blonde, a brunette, a redhead, a man, a woman, etc]"
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?" - Sure. But again, this is about present purposes and uses. Says so right there in the verse. We see this all the time in reality.
"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"
What if? Yeah, what if?
What if... hmm... what if Romney had been elected? What if the earth is flat? What if we never hear about Kim Kardashian again? What if gas goes to $10 per gallon? What if gas goes to $1 per gallon?
What if?
But if we're going to be a bit more serious... what if God had patience with people who invited His wrath through their actions, those people obviously being prepared for destruction because they invited God's wrath, and waited to give them their just desserts so that He could show His wrath and make His power known? You have to admit that sometimes that's the best way to go. Here's a story I've known about for many years:
Here is one I just heard from my husband. A guy where he works "swears" it happened to someone he knew... A bride and a groom are at their wedding reception. Everything is going perfectly when the groom stands up to give a toast. He thanks all the guests for coming and for the stack of presents on the table, then thanks the father of the bride for the beautiful reception. He then tells the guests that he has a surprise for all of them. He instructs them to look under their chairs. They do and find a picture taped to the bottom of each seat. The guests are shocked and horrified! It's a picture of the bride and the best man having sex! The groom says he had a feeling they were having an affair and hired an investigator who took the photo. He then says to the father of the bride, "Thanks for the $30,000 sit-down dinner and party, but I'm out of here." And he walked out. He filed for an annulment the following Monday.
Now, whether or not this story is actually true, you have to admit that this is a much greater punishment than it would have been to call off the wedding at the moment the investigator discovered that the bride was cheating. Instead of reacting immediately, the groom maximized the punishment for the evil action by "bearing with great patience" the bride who was obviously inviting trouble through her actions.
"What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—"
Of course He prepared the objects of His mercy in advance for glory. Jesus' death on the cross did this. Anyone who accepts God's free gift of saving grace through Jesus will be shown God's mercy through this advance preparation.
"even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"
So they were called. And objects of God's mercy could be found in people of Jewish heritage who had accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, and in people of Gentile heritage who had done the same.
NONE OF THIS speaks toward election. There is NO logic at all in the assertion that God predestines some people for heaven and some people for hell, yet each person is still 100% personally responsible for his/her actions. Some have said "that's human logic, not God logic"... okay, then let's look at God logic. There's a reason why the Calvinist - Arminian debate has been raging for centuries. Calvinists say "predestination", Arminians say "humans must choose"... and each side has Bible verses to back its stance. If we assume that the Bible shows no clear winner through God logic, we must then break the tie using "human logic" (which, since we're created in the image of God anyway, is also a form of God logic).
Let's rock. Let's settle this debate once and for all... or at least talk about it to an extent. I'm especially interested in hearing from people who believe in election. I want y'all to answer the following questions. For each question, we will assume in advance that "election" states that God alone determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, and there is absolutely nothing that any individual human can do to alter his/her fate or the fate of another. (I've heard this a lot from election supporters.)
1) If we can do nothing to change our fate or the fate of others, why then should we preach / proselytize / evangelize?
2) How is it loving for God to predestine some people to eternal punishment?
3) If God desires all to be saved, why would He predestine some to eternal damnation?
4) If a person is predestined to hell, why is it so terrible that that person "lives it up" while on earth? (Put another way - why should Christians try to stop such a person from sinning?)
We'll start with this. I look forward to your responses.
Your very well written (and long) treatise is both interesting and compelling. However, your questions seem to deal only with the doctrine of predestination.
Trying to 'fit' the infinite mind and ways of God into our own finite perceptions, is a daunting challenge. In my mind, God has pre-destined the consequences of mankind's 'free will choice' during this lifetime to love, obey and serve Him .... or not. God does not 'pre-destine/determine' OUR choices, nor does He allow Satan to 'force' us to do anything!
Of course, God has an eternal knowledge of who will ultimately make what choices (precognition), but, WE do not. (God does not operate within the linear concept of time that He created for mankind on this earth). Further, in this 'time' context, I don't believe that God shares man's 'let-down' with already knowing the 'end of the book or movie.' Instead, I believe that God wants us to have the 'eternal benefit' (?) of knowing that we chose Him during this lifetime.
I look forward to a good discussion. Let's agree to be civil and keep it non-personal. This is a topic that can get heated pretty quickly.
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Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy
-Since God created man to have free choice, and to be in relationship with Him, it stands to reason that He must facilitate that relationship. Though God does indeed possess the power to know everything, see everything, etc... the only logical explanation for how He can still have relationships with humans in the way He wishes (as stated in His Word) is that He consciously chooses NOT to know everything.
Can you back this up from scripture?
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After all, if it is assumed that God always knows, and is always consciously aware of, what we're thinking and what we're going to say even before we say it, then it would stand to reason that there's no point to prayer. (I'll do another thread on this at some point.)
Except that it glorifies him when we come to him in prayer. It also benefits us to submit to him. Again--if you can't back up what you're saying from scripture, then I have no reason to say you're correct. To the contrary, though, I know that scripture says God is omniscient (1 John 3:20)
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Since God wants us to talk with Him, and since God rarely talks back in readily discernible ways like a human would if you were conversing with one, it stands to logic that God chooses to refuse foreknowledge of what we're thinking, sometimes at least, in the name of having a relationship with us.
Why? It doesn't seem reasonable to assume that God does something against what scripture says. After all, scripture is inspired by him.
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After all, though we may love the notion of knowing what someone else thinks all the time, would that not eventually create boredom because the two people would never have to communicate with each other to know what the other is thinking?
You said above that God doesn't "NEED" anything. Why would he grow bored knowing what we think?
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-Figuring that God consciously chooses NOT to know everything, this runs contrary to predestination. I'm finally going to say it - I DO NOT BELIEVE IN PREDESTINATION.
Yet, the Bible CLEARLY says that we are predestined in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8. How do you reconcile your position with those passages?
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I feel that every verse and passage quoted in the Bible by those who support predestination can easily be interpreted to mean something else, even without going into the original languages. Here's a good passage for you:
1 Timothy 2:3-6a "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people."
God wants ALL people to be saved. (Predestining some to hell runs totally against this.)
God also wants all to be sinless. Yet, he allows for us to sin. Weird, huh?
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Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for ALL people. (Not just those predestined to heaven, or "the elect". His salvation is available to ALL.)
Actually, if you want to examine the passage deeper, I can demonstrate to you that in context, he was saying "ALL" as in "all believers". It doesn't mean all of mankind that ever existed.
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I could go on, but I choose not to. To give you an idea of why God would not want to know in advance who will accept His salvation and who will not, even if He could determine that, I ask you this. Is there any thrill / enjoyment / excitement in watching a new movie if you already know what happens and how it's going to end, before you watch it? How about reading a new book? Do you read the last chapter first? If you do, you have to admit, you lose a good bit of the excitement. Instead, it's much more enjoyable to indulge in such entertainment when it "draws you in"... keeping you hooked by making you want to know what happens next in the story. I've felt that myself. I have also known many a person who seems to be able to predict the ending of movies, stories, etc... my wife is one such person. They're never excited by anything whose ending they can predict. Where do you suppose the tendency to experience excitement comes from? Yes indeed, 'tis another aspect of God Himself. That's part of being made in God's image.
-The favorite verses quoted by those who believe in election are Romans 9:11-24. Here they are:
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' ' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
God didn't tell Rebekah that He would hate Esau and love Jacob. In Genesis He tells Rebekah that Esau, the elder twin, will serve Jacob, the younger twin... and He said this only when Rebekah asked what was going on inside her body.
Actually, he said he loved Jacob and hated Esau. It's pretty clear. Read chapter 9 again.
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God's purpose in election is "not by works, but by Him who calls" - meaning that we cannot get to Heaven of our own works... we must go through Him. God has chosen / called all of us, and if we're to answer that call, we must go through Him. We can't get there by working our way to Heaven, though we do have to do good works to prove that we have the faith necessary to get us there. Works by themselves won't do it, and faith without works is dead. So it is that works & faith together are what we need.
Actually, Ephesians 2:8-9 states that it isn't by works...but by FAITH ALONE that we are saved. Faith and works together might as well be works alone--because you're still dependent upon yourself to do the work. No matter how much faith you have.
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"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." God is not saying, in this passage, that He will predestine some for heaven and some for hell - He is saying "Don't question what I do. I'm God, you're not, I'm going to do what I choose to do."
Actually, he's saying he will have compassion on whoever he wants to have compassion on. That's what it says. All of us have earned hell--God just predestines some of us to be able to accept his gift of salvation.
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But remember - 1 John 4:8 is the famous "God is love" verse. If God is love, God will not predestine some people to eternal damnation and punishment.
That isn't the position of Calvinists, and it's not what predestination teaches. We have all earned hell for what we've done. God doesn't predestine anyone to damnation ---but he does predestine some to mercy.
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Such is not loving. The only logical way this could be considered loving would be if hell were not punishment for some people... but there's no evidence in the Word attesting to how this condition could be possible.
It doesn't depend upon human desire or effort, but on God's mercy - I can rock with that. How many of you, as kids, tried to get your parents to reduce or remove punishments they'd levied upon you? Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. The argument could be made that if you just accepted it and never tried to get it reduced, you'd have had to deal with the whole thing anyway... and by making the effort, you effected the change. However, that is disproven when you consider the times that you failed to effect that change even through your effort. Your effort meant something but ultimately the decision was in the hands of your parents. So it is that your effort to get into God's good graces means something, but the authority for the decision rests entirely with God.
"Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " - We shouldn't do this, though most of us have. But this doesn't ask about an eternal destiny. It asks about a present condition. "Why did you make me [short, tall, fat, thin, a blonde, a brunette, a redhead, a man, a woman, etc]"
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?" - Sure. But again, this is about present purposes and uses. Says so right there in the verse. We see this all the time in reality.
"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"
What if? Yeah, what if?
What if... hmm... what if Romney had been elected? What if the earth is flat? What if we never hear about Kim Kardashian again? What if gas goes to $10 per gallon? What if gas goes to $1 per gallon?
What if?
But if we're going to be a bit more serious... what if God had patience with people who invited His wrath through their actions, those people obviously being prepared for destruction because they invited God's wrath, and waited to give them their just desserts so that He could show His wrath and make His power known? You have to admit that sometimes that's the best way to go. Here's a story I've known about for many years:
Here is one I just heard from my husband. A guy where he works "swears" it happened to someone he knew... A bride and a groom are at their wedding reception. Everything is going perfectly when the groom stands up to give a toast. He thanks all the guests for coming and for the stack of presents on the table, then thanks the father of the bride for the beautiful reception. He then tells the guests that he has a surprise for all of them. He instructs them to look under their chairs. They do and find a picture taped to the bottom of each seat. The guests are shocked and horrified! It's a picture of the bride and the best man having sex! The groom says he had a feeling they were having an affair and hired an investigator who took the photo. He then says to the father of the bride, "Thanks for the $30,000 sit-down dinner and party, but I'm out of here." And he walked out. He filed for an annulment the following Monday.
Now, whether or not this story is actually true, you have to admit that this is a much greater punishment than it would have been to call off the wedding at the moment the investigator discovered that the bride was cheating. Instead of reacting immediately, the groom maximized the punishment for the evil action by "bearing with great patience" the bride who was obviously inviting trouble through her actions.
"What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—"
That's an interesting story. But I'm not sure what it has to do with predestination.
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Of course He prepared the objects of His mercy in advance for glory. Jesus' death on the cross did this. Anyone who accepts God's free gift of saving grace through Jesus will be shown God's mercy through this advance preparation.
"even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"
So they were called. And objects of God's mercy could be found in people of Jewish heritage who had accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, and in people of Gentile heritage who had done the same.
NONE OF THIS speaks toward election. There is NO logic at all in the assertion that God predestines some people for heaven and some people for hell,
The Bible says he predestines.
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yet each person is still 100% personally responsible for his/her actions.
You're right. We are. Even the ones that are saved despite our sin. When God grants us the faith to believe, we do because we can realize it's the better thing. It's like offering my kid a bowl of ice cream, or a bowl of raw liver. I know which one she's going to choose.
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Some have said "that's human logic, not God logic"... okay, then let's look at God logic. There's a reason why the Calvinist - Arminian debate has been raging for centuries. Calvinists say "predestination", Arminians say "humans must choose"...
Actually, Calvinists also say that we must choose.
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and each side has Bible verses to back its stance. If we assume that the Bible shows no clear winner through God logic, we must then break the tie using "human logic" (which, since we're created in the image of God anyway, is also a form of God logic).
The Bible does show a clear winner. In fact it states explicitly that God predestines.
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Let's rock. Let's settle this debate once and for all... or at least talk about it to an extent. I'm especially interested in hearing from people who believe in election. I want y'all to answer the following questions. For each question, we will assume in advance that "election" states that God alone determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, and there is absolutely nothing that any individual human can do to alter his/her fate or the fate of another. (I've heard this a lot from election supporters.)
1) If we can do nothing to change our fate or the fate of others, why then should we preach / proselytize / evangelize?
I don't know who God has predestined. I will preach his Gospel and let God sort it out. The ones that do repent and trust--great! The ones that don't? They will face judgment.
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2) How is it loving for God to predestine some people to eternal punishment?
God doesn't predestine some to eternal punishment. He lets them have the punishment they've earned.
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3) If God desires all to be saved, why would He predestine some to eternal damnation?
For the same reason that God also desires that we all be sinless. But he allows us to sin.
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4) If a person is predestined to hell, why is it so terrible that that person "lives it up" while on earth? (Put another way - why should Christians try to stop such a person from sinning?)
Because by "living it up", they affect me. I'd rather not face the problems created by people "living it up".
I believe it's pertaining to the first fruit of creation. I believe there will be a people who will embody His life and do wonders (as He said we would).
Scripture says creation is groaning for the manifestation of them- and from there you have the true harvest of mankind.
In the understanding of a Calvinist, it is possible for someone to be predestined to salvation and yet not choose it? What happens if one of the elect does not accept salvation through faith - will God save him anyway?
Okay y'all, let's rock. I'm tired of hearing people say "I don't know" when I ask questions about election... and when I say "people", I'm talking about pastors. These are people who really should know such things, and instead they claim that they don't.
I'll try to make my explanation brief for why I do not believe in election.
-First of all, man was not created holy. Man was created "in the image of God" but certainly not to the level of holiness of God. Were man holy, man could not have been corrupted by Satan in the Garden of Eden. Man's corruptibility proves that man was not created holy.....
We'll start with this. I look forward to your responses.
I would start by saying that it looks as if as though your entire thesis begins with this faulty premise (in bold)
Man was created holy and like the angels prior to their rebellion, had free will.
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If you carefully read the scriptures, it states that election is spoken regarding the believer not about unbeliever. Human reasoning then concludes:
well if the believer is ... then unbeliever is too.
which that is unscriptural.
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Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy
1) If we can do nothing to change our fate or the fate of others, why then should we preach / proselytize / evangelize?
There are several flaws here:
1) People's fate are not changed because of "we" ... rather they are changed by the power of the Holy Spirit.
The reason we preach is because:
Jesus commanded us to do so Matthew 28:18-20
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Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy
2) How is it loving for God to predestine some people to eternal punishment?
No where does scripture teach that ... humanistic conclusions does.
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Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy
3) If God desires all to be saved, why would He predestine some to eternal damnation?
see above
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Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy
4) If a person is predestined to hell, why is it so terrible that that person "lives it up" while on earth? (Put another way - why should Christians try to stop such a person from sinning?)
But a person isn't ... so that is why scriptures teach:
Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth,
no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Last edited by twin.spin; 11-06-2013 at 12:48 PM..
Reason: spacing gremlins
In the understanding of a Calvinist, it is possible for someone to be predestined to salvation and yet not choose it? What happens if one of the elect does not accept salvation through faith - will God save him anyway?
No. It's called Irresistable Grace. Basically, it says that if God elects you--you are GOING to realize the goodness of him and you WILL believe.
Okay y'all, let's rock. I'm tired of hearing people say "I don't know" when I ask questions about election... and when I say "people", I'm talking about pastors. These are people who really should know such things, and instead they claim that they don't.
I'll try to make my explanation brief for why I do not believe in election.
-First of all, man was not created holy. Man was created "in the image of God" but certainly not to the level of holiness of God. Were man holy, man could not have been corrupted by Satan in the Garden of Eden. Man's corruptibility proves that man was not created holy.
-Since man was not created holy, God had to have had His reasons for creating man so. He had it within His power to make man totally perfect, and also to make man unquestionably obedient to Him. There was no reason why man HAD to have been created with free will, and corruptibility, but God decided to make man that way anyway. The only logical reason why this happened was because God's purposes are better served by humans that have the choice of whether or not they will follow Him, than they would have been by humans that were essentially robot slaves.
-The reason for the above can be explained by how man was created in God's image. Being created in God's image means that we share certain attributes with God. That being the case, it can be said, conversely, that God shares certain attributes with humans. This is evinced all over the Bible. For example, God is emotional in many ways. He does not NEED human beings to execute any great plans of His... after all, this is the God that created over 100,000,000,000 galaxies just because He could. His power is infinite and He can do anything that humans can do, better than humans can. So why create humans? Answer: for RELATIONSHIP. Put colloquially, it's lonely at the top. This explains free will as well. A relationship only carries meaning if it is chosen by all parties to it. Think about this - I've read articles stating that there could be humanoid robots by 2050... robots that approximate humans in any way... robots that humans could even have relationships with, and marry. Wouldn't you think it was silly and ludicrous for a man to marry a robot, claim to be in love with a robot, etc? Most people would, for the very reason that it is a robot, and not a human being who is capable of making choices. There's no meaning in a relationship when you can plug your mate into a computer console and reprogram him/her to do your bidding anytime. That is more of a master-slave transactional situation than a relationship.
-Since God created man to have free choice, and to be in relationship with Him, it stands to reason that He must facilitate that relationship. Though God does indeed possess the power to know everything, see everything, etc... the only logical explanation for how He can still have relationships with humans in the way He wishes (as stated in His Word) is that He consciously chooses NOT to know everything. After all, if it is assumed that God always knows, and is always consciously aware of, what we're thinking and what we're going to say even before we say it, then it would stand to reason that there's no point to prayer. (I'll do another thread on this at some point.) Since God wants us to talk with Him, and since God rarely talks back in readily discernible ways like a human would if you were conversing with one, it stands to logic that God chooses to refuse foreknowledge of what we're thinking, sometimes at least, in the name of having a relationship with us. After all, though we may love the notion of knowing what someone else thinks all the time, would that not eventually create boredom because the two people would never have to communicate with each other to know what the other is thinking?
-Figuring that God consciously chooses NOT to know everything, this runs contrary to predestination. I'm finally going to say it - I DO NOT BELIEVE IN PREDESTINATION. I feel that every verse and passage quoted in the Bible by those who support predestination can easily be interpreted to mean something else, even without going into the original languages. Here's a good passage for you:
1 Timothy 2:3-6a "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people."
God wants ALL people to be saved. (Predestining some to hell runs totally against this.)
Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for ALL people. (Not just those predestined to heaven, or "the elect". His salvation is available to ALL.)
I could go on, but I choose not to. To give you an idea of why God would not want to know in advance who will accept His salvation and who will not, even if He could determine that, I ask you this. Is there any thrill / enjoyment / excitement in watching a new movie if you already know what happens and how it's going to end, before you watch it? How about reading a new book? Do you read the last chapter first? If you do, you have to admit, you lose a good bit of the excitement. Instead, it's much more enjoyable to indulge in such entertainment when it "draws you in"... keeping you hooked by making you want to know what happens next in the story. I've felt that myself. I have also known many a person who seems to be able to predict the ending of movies, stories, etc... my wife is one such person. They're never excited by anything whose ending they can predict. Where do you suppose the tendency to experience excitement comes from? Yes indeed, 'tis another aspect of God Himself. That's part of being made in God's image.
-The favorite verses quoted by those who believe in election are Romans 9:11-24. Here they are:
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' ' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
God didn't tell Rebekah that He would hate Esau and love Jacob. In Genesis He tells Rebekah that Esau, the elder twin, will serve Jacob, the younger twin... and He said this only when Rebekah asked what was going on inside her body.
God's purpose in election is "not by works, but by Him who calls" - meaning that we cannot get to Heaven of our own works... we must go through Him. God has chosen / called all of us, and if we're to answer that call, we must go through Him. We can't get there by working our way to Heaven, though we do have to do good works to prove that we have the faith necessary to get us there. Works by themselves won't do it, and faith without works is dead. So it is that works & faith together are what we need.
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." God is not saying, in this passage, that He will predestine some for heaven and some for hell - He is saying "Don't question what I do. I'm God, you're not, I'm going to do what I choose to do." But remember - 1 John 4:8 is the famous "God is love" verse. If God is love, God will not predestine some people to eternal damnation and punishment. Such is not loving. The only logical way this could be considered loving would be if hell were not punishment for some people... but there's no evidence in the Word attesting to how this condition could be possible.
It doesn't depend upon human desire or effort, but on God's mercy - I can rock with that. How many of you, as kids, tried to get your parents to reduce or remove punishments they'd levied upon you? Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. The argument could be made that if you just accepted it and never tried to get it reduced, you'd have had to deal with the whole thing anyway... and by making the effort, you effected the change. However, that is disproven when you consider the times that you failed to effect that change even through your effort. Your effort meant something but ultimately the decision was in the hands of your parents. So it is that your effort to get into God's good graces means something, but the authority for the decision rests entirely with God.
"Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " - We shouldn't do this, though most of us have. But this doesn't ask about an eternal destiny. It asks about a present condition. "Why did you make me [short, tall, fat, thin, a blonde, a brunette, a redhead, a man, a woman, etc]"
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?" - Sure. But again, this is about present purposes and uses. Says so right there in the verse. We see this all the time in reality.
"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"
What if? Yeah, what if?
What if... hmm... what if Romney had been elected? What if the earth is flat? What if we never hear about Kim Kardashian again? What if gas goes to $10 per gallon? What if gas goes to $1 per gallon?
What if?
But if we're going to be a bit more serious... what if God had patience with people who invited His wrath through their actions, those people obviously being prepared for destruction because they invited God's wrath, and waited to give them their just desserts so that He could show His wrath and make His power known? You have to admit that sometimes that's the best way to go. Here's a story I've known about for many years:
Here is one I just heard from my husband. A guy where he works "swears" it happened to someone he knew... A bride and a groom are at their wedding reception. Everything is going perfectly when the groom stands up to give a toast. He thanks all the guests for coming and for the stack of presents on the table, then thanks the father of the bride for the beautiful reception. He then tells the guests that he has a surprise for all of them. He instructs them to look under their chairs. They do and find a picture taped to the bottom of each seat. The guests are shocked and horrified! It's a picture of the bride and the best man having sex! The groom says he had a feeling they were having an affair and hired an investigator who took the photo. He then says to the father of the bride, "Thanks for the $30,000 sit-down dinner and party, but I'm out of here." And he walked out. He filed for an annulment the following Monday.
Now, whether or not this story is actually true, you have to admit that this is a much greater punishment than it would have been to call off the wedding at the moment the investigator discovered that the bride was cheating. Instead of reacting immediately, the groom maximized the punishment for the evil action by "bearing with great patience" the bride who was obviously inviting trouble through her actions.
"What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—"
Of course He prepared the objects of His mercy in advance for glory. Jesus' death on the cross did this. Anyone who accepts God's free gift of saving grace through Jesus will be shown God's mercy through this advance preparation.
"even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"
So they were called. And objects of God's mercy could be found in people of Jewish heritage who had accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, and in people of Gentile heritage who had done the same.
NONE OF THIS speaks toward election. There is NO logic at all in the assertion that God predestines some people for heaven and some people for hell, yet each person is still 100% personally responsible for his/her actions. Some have said "that's human logic, not God logic"... okay, then let's look at God logic. There's a reason why the Calvinist - Arminian debate has been raging for centuries. Calvinists say "predestination", Arminians say "humans must choose"... and each side has Bible verses to back its stance. If we assume that the Bible shows no clear winner through God logic, we must then break the tie using "human logic" (which, since we're created in the image of God anyway, is also a form of God logic).
Let's rock. Let's settle this debate once and for all... or at least talk about it to an extent. I'm especially interested in hearing from people who believe in election. I want y'all to answer the following questions. For each question, we will assume in advance that "election" states that God alone determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, and there is absolutely nothing that any individual human can do to alter his/her fate or the fate of another. (I've heard this a lot from election supporters.)
1) If we can do nothing to change our fate or the fate of others, why then should we preach / proselytize / evangelize?
2) How is it loving for God to predestine some people to eternal punishment?
3) If God desires all to be saved, why would He predestine some to eternal damnation?
4) If a person is predestined to hell, why is it so terrible that that person "lives it up" while on earth? (Put another way - why should Christians try to stop such a person from sinning?)
We'll start with this. I look forward to your responses.
You start off with an assumption.
That man being in the image of God and "good" ("holy" is not used), in some way is incomplete IF man can sin. OF course if perfection allows free will or choice, the balance of your argument is of no value, since it applies after the sin and resultant imperfection.
No. It's called Irresistable Grace. Basically, it says that if God elects you--you are GOING to realize the goodness of him and you WILL believe.
the " I P " in Calvinism's theology of "tulip" is unscriptural
I=irresistible grace. People cannot resist God's saving grace, which is offered only to the elect.
Scripture teaches:
Psalm 21:7 ...... "for they refuse to do what is right." verifies that scripture teaches that people do in fact resist grace.
Psalm 21:16 " A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead"
Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Last edited by twin.spin; 11-06-2013 at 01:02 PM..
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