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Old 11-26-2013, 03:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Anonymous_113 - Mike posted some verses and wants you to believe that the Holy Spirit is ANOTHER PERSON. But read all those verses that Mike posted and think about what I told you and you will see that what I told you is not contradicted by any verse - not even the ones Mike posted.
This verse alone proves Mike is wrong:

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Do you have a separate person in you? Of course not. That verse destroys the idea of a Trinity as 3 distinct persons.
Amen, trettep! We "knoweth" in our consciousness (Spirit). That IS us . . . just as God's consciousness (Holy Spirit) IS God.
Quote:
Remember, I said the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father in Heaven, so you will see this make sense:

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

That Spirit there is His Spirit (The Father's Spirit) = God's Spirit.
It is tough to confront dogmatism, trettep. It is deeply entrenched and indoctrinated from an early age. The "precepts and doctrines of men" are the biggest stumbling blocks to knowing God and experiencing the kingdom of God within.
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:30 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Anonymous_113 look at the last statement from Mike's post above and you will see why their reasoning makes no sense. Here is the piece of his post:

"Since the Father knows the mind of the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father". See the problem in that? - It would mean that if YOU know YOU then YOU must be distinct from YOU. That is the failed logic and reasoning in the Trinity doctrine.
This is the second post where you have talked around me instead of to me. The plain understanding of Romans 8:26-27 is not that it is saying that the Father knows his own mind, but that He knows the mind of the one to whom is being referred. That this is not a reference to the Father knowing His own mind is further confirmed by the matter of intercession which the passage addresses. In the matter of intercession one intercedes between and on behalf of two or more other parties. The Father cannot intercede between Himself and believers. One does not intercede between Himself and another party. There has to be a third party which intercedes between two or more other parties. The Holy Spirit intercedes between the believer who is one party, and the Father who is the other party.

Allow me to once again quote just a portion of what the Bible Knowledge Commentary says with regard to Romans 8:26-27.
The one who searches our hearts is God (1 Sam. 16:7; Heb. 4:13). and He knows (oidn, ''knows perceptively or intuitively'') the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes (entynchanei; cf. Rom. 8:26) for the saints in accordance with God's will. Even though the Spirit's words are not expressed, the Father knows what the Spirit is thinking. This is an interesting statement about the Father's omniscience and the intimacy within the Trinity. The Lord Jesus continually intercedes for believers in God's presence (v. 34; Heb. 7:25) and the Holy Spirit also intercedes on their behalf! Though believers are ignorant of what to pray for and how to voice those requests, the Spirit voices their requests for them. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary, p. 473]
Do you understand that in the matter of intercession there must be a party which intercedes between two or more other parties? It is the Holy Spirit who is interceding between God the Father and believers in Romans 8:26-27.

The one who searches our hearts (God the Father) is party number one. He knows the mind of the Spirit who is party number three, because He (the Holy Spirit) intercedes for the saints who are party number two, in accordance with God the Father's will.

This should not be difficult to understand. But you must be objective and not allow personal bias to cloud your understanding.

At any rate, I hope the Original poster will have the initiative to follow up on his question by consulting with a pastor, and/or checking out the available commentaries, and not just blindly accept as true the replies which are given on forums such as this one. It is very easy to be misled, and there are many who mislead either by reason of their own ignorance, or by conscious design.
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:39 PM
 
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Spirit from God is the essence of God which is inbred by His character , and His purpose , which God puts on believers who are cleansed of worldly Spirits .................... Worldly spirits are demon spirit which are spirits of this world who live among people and influence and take the will of man away were he may give up and say This is how I think , which demons spirits are in unity with the man ................ People cannot see demons , but you will see them in dreams as demons spirit come into vision through dreams of man or woman or animal in dreams ................. Then there are demon spirits which confuse people and show themselves as ghost , which demons spirit convince people their are ghosts and then show themselves.... Then there are fallen angels spirits which are lost to God and they can show themselves and ghost or even aliens beings or the people who would believe ..................... See Man is born on this earth with a spirit which will never die , and this spirit of man is compatible with the essence of God spirit which God can give to His believers , and man as a soul which is the memories , and thoughts behind the eyes and mind of man , if a person passes from this earth without the spirit of the essence of God,................ Then a Holy Angel of God will collect the soul and spirit of a man which then the Holy Angel will take to Jesus who will judge the person , , so if lost the soul and spirit will be sent to a place where they would never want to go and their soul will die and their spirit will not die , and a spirit without a soul is one of the worst things that anyone could ever be , and God will look at a spirit without a soul and see this spirit is the worst thing to see that God knows
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Anonymous_113 when you read Mike's post, notice how much he has to eplain away what is clear in scriptures such as this:

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

That scripture is so easy to understand just by reading it as is. Let that be your guide on how others here present their case.

Again, it is the Spirit that makes us cry Abba or Father. Think about that and the many references to the fact then when talking to God it is called YOUR SPIRIT.
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Old 11-26-2013, 06:31 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Anonymous_113 when you read Mike's post, notice how much he has to eplain away what is clear in scriptures such as this:

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

That scripture is so easy to understand just by reading it as is. Let that be your guide on how others here present their case.

Again, it is the Spirit that makes us cry Abba or Father. Think about that and the many references to the fact then when talking to God it is called YOUR SPIRIT.
This is the third post in which you have not addressed me, but have only talked around me to the original poster with regard to what I have said. And in your attempt to refute me, again, not by directly addressing me, but by talking to another poster about me and what I have said, you dismiss my rebuttal of what you have said as ''having to explain away what is clear in scripture''. And yet you have not understood the clear statement that the Holy Spirit intercedes between the Father and believers, which means that the Holy Spirit is not the Father. You have also ignored and dismissed the commentary of learned theologians who do not agree with what you erroneously claim. It seems that you feel that you have the right to make your claims, but that no one is allowed to rebut your claims, and that if they do, then they are resorting to apologetics.

It is clear that you neither understand the Scriptures concerning the Holy Spirit or the Trinity, and that you cannot refute what the Scriptures say concerning the Holy Spirit's relation to the Father, and so you are simply dismissing both me and my replies to you by not replying back to me, but are instead talking to the original poster about my replies to you and saying things like ''See how he has to explain away what is clear in Scripture.''

I will waste no more time in replying to you Trettep. My initial reply on this thread (post #14) was to the original poster. I hope he takes my advice to heart and consults with a pastor and with commentaries on the subject.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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I have not prayed that you be taken out of the world, but that you remain safe from harm.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Anonymous_113, just ask questions if you have concerns or need help understanding something. Take what I have said up against ANY verse in the Bible, as nothing can refute it (the true test of the Truth itself). Think about this also:



1Ti 1:17 and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory--to the ages of the ages! Amen.

1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Notice here it says that God (The Father) is the only one having immortality (of course at that time). So if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Life then it must be HIS since it would take LIFE EVERLASTING to be immortal.

These are just a few more points that prove the Holy Spirit is not a THIRD entity of a Trinity.

Remember that the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit and He gives us all that are His Children and showed this in how he created man by which the flesh is a type of the spirit and by man having offspring they inherit the flesh of the father.

Clement made this point as well:

"For this flesh is the type of the spirit" (2 Clement chapter 14)

God said we can know His Godhead from the things made (for He made them):

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Hope this helps.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Clement made this point as well:
"For this flesh is the type of the spirit" (2 Clement chapter 14)
trettep 12-27-2009,From 2 Clement (Yes, I believe this text is inspired)
I'm glad you like Clement, and believe his epistle(s) are inspired. I'm going to provide some excerpts with commentary from 1 Clement, which is widely attributed to his authorship, and 2 Clement which is regarded by scholars as not authored by Clement.

First is 1 Clement 58:2, followed by Bishop Lightfoot's commentary regarding the Trinity,
1Clement 58:2
Receive our counsel, and ye shall have no occasion of regret. For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, who are the faith and the hope of the elect, so surely shall he, who
with lowliness of mind and instant in gentleness hath without regretfulness performed the ordinances and commandments that are given by God, be enrolled and have a name among the number of them
that are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory unto Him for ever and ever. Amen.

Bishop Lightfoot's Commentary:
Quote:
There is little intentional dogmatic teaching in the Epistle, for it is almost wholly hortatory. A passage on the Holy Trinity is important. Clement uses the Old Testament affirmation "The Lord liveth", substituting the Trinity thus: "As God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth and the Holy Spirit — the faith and hope of the elect, so surely he that performeth", etc. (58)-Bishop Joseph Lightfoot
Before I post 2 Clement Chapter 14, some scholarly commentary:
Quote:
The earliest external reference to 2 Clement is found in Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History written in the early 4th century:
But it must be observed also that there is said to be a second epistle of Clement. But we do not know that this is recognized like the former, for we do not find that the ancients have made any use of it. And certain men have lately brought forward other wordy and lengthy writings under his name, containing dialogues of Peter and Apion. But no mention has been made of these by the ancients; for they do not even preserve the pure stamp of apostolic orthodoxy.
Second Epistle of Clement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Harnack thinks that it is the letter which Soter (bishop of Rome - c. 166-174) is related to have sent to Corinth (cf. Eus. Hist. Eccl. iv. 23. 11). He thinks that Soter probably used an old homily which seemed to him to be suitable. This letter was kept in the archives of the church at Corinth together with I Clement, which had also come from Rome; later on, when they were both being copied, the real facts were forgotten and both were supposed to be letters of Clement (Harnack, Chronogie I, pp. 438 ff).

Lightfoot is inclined to think that it was an ancient homily of some unknown person in the church at Corinth. He lays stress on the imagery from the games, and suggests that this was inspired by the Isthmian games. Like Harnack's this theory has the advantage of explaining why the document came to be connected with Clement - it was found in the Corinthian archives together with I. Clement.

Other scholars, regarding the external evidence as practically valueless, have thought that II. Clement was originally an Alexandrian homily. Their reasons are the theological character of the book, and the possible use of the Gospel of the Egyptians. This theory explains the contents of the book more naturally than do the views of Harnack and Lightfoot, but fails to show why it was ever connected with I. Clement.The Second Epistle of Clement
I think that should make my point about the authorship of 2 Clement not being Clement.

2 Clement 14. The Church Spiritual
Quote:
So, then, brethren, if we do the will of our Father God, we shall be members of the first church, the spiritual,— that which was created before sun and moon; but if we shall not do the will of the Lord, we shall come under the Scripture which says, My house became a den of robbers. So, then, let us elect to belong to the church of life, that we may be saved. I think not that you are ignorant that the living church is the body of Christ (for the Scripture, says, God created man male and female; the male is Christ, the female the church,) and that the Books and the Apostles teach that the church is not of the present, but from the beginning. For it was spiritual, as was also our Jesus, and was made manifest at the end of the days in order to save you. The church being spiritual, was made manifest in the flesh of Christ, signifying to us that if any one of us shall preserve it in the flesh and corrupt it not, he shall receive it in the Holy Spirit. For this flesh is the type of the spirit; no one, therefore, having corrupted the type, will receive afterwards the antitype. Therefore is it, then, that He says, brethren, Preserve the flesh, that you may become partakers of the spirit. If we say that the flesh is the church and the spirit Christ, then it follows that he who shall offer outrage to the flesh is guilty of outrage on the church. Such an one, therefore, will not partake of the spirit, which is Christ. Such is the life and immortality, which this flesh may afterwards receive, the Holy Spirit cleaving to it; and no one can either express or utter what things the Lord has prepared for His elect.
For those who have not read the entire 'epistle', more likely a homily, the word 'flesh' is brought up in several chapters in a different context than what was written in Chapter 14.

An excellent commentary on parts of 2 Clement can be found in ‘“No small counsel about selfcontrol”: Enkrateia and the virtuous body as missional performance in 2 Clement’, HTS Teologiese Studies/Theological Studies 69(1), Art. #1340, 10 pages. De Wet, C.L., 2013,
Quote:
The author would introduce yet another dualism in this equation, namely that of spirit or flesh and Christ or church in 2 Clement 14. This parallelism is also used as a strategy for the formation of virtuous corporeality. The notion of a pre-existent, spiritual church is also common in Gnostic literature, namely the Tripartite Tractate and the Treatise of Three Natures (Donfried 1974:160)

Whilst the soul may be described as an intra-corporeal technology, spirit is perhaps more an extra-corporeal technology, something more metaphysical than soul. Whilst the soul becomes a micro-duplication of the flesh, the flesh is a macro-duplication of the spirit, and in the same way that 2 Clement wants congruity between the soul and the flesh, at the end there should also be congruity between the flesh and the spirit. The flesh is duplicated in the spirit (2 Clem 14:3): ‘For the flesh is a copy [anti-type] of the spirit. No one, therefore, who corrupts the copy will share in the original.’25 The homily speaks of the flesh as the anti-type [ἀντίτυπος] of the spirit whilst the spirit represents the original [αὐθεντικόν], probably relating to a metaphysical pre-existence of a material being. For 2 Clement, spiritual refers to both a pre-carnal dispensation as well as the destination of the carnal, its final, perhaps even pre-lapsarian, stasis (2 Clem 14:3). Such male or female conjugal dichotomies, called syzygies, are very common in Valentinian Gnosticism. No small counsel about self-control: Enkrateia and the virtuous body as missional performance in 2 Clement | de Wet | HTS Teologiese Studies / Theological Studies
2 Clement in its entirety can be found here, http://aren.org/prison/documents/rel...%20Clement.pdf it's a short, easy read.

Last edited by bartstarr1960; 11-27-2013 at 12:45 AM..
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:04 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Amen, trettep! We "knoweth" in our consciousness (Spirit). That IS us . . . just as God's consciousness (Holy Spirit) IS God.It is tough to confront dogmatism, trettep. It is deeply entrenched and indoctrinated from an early age. The "precepts and doctrines of men" are the biggest stumbling blocks to knowing God and experiencing the kingdom of God within.
People search high and low for the kingdom...when all they have to do is seek the kingdom WITHIN themselves! God isn't hiding...he lives in ALL of us.
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Old 11-27-2013, 07:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
People search high and low for the kingdom...when all they have to do is seek the kingdom WITHIN themselves! God isn't hiding...he lives in ALL of us.
How is Daniel 2 v 44 within a person ?________

At Luke 17 v 20 isn't Jesus addressing the Pharisees?
Would the thousand-year kingdom of God be within the Pharisees, or rather that Jesus was within their midst ?
Please notice it is Not until verse 22 that Jesus addresses his disciples.
To be sure his disciples understood that the kingdom would Not immediately or instantly appear Jesus gave them the illustration of Luke 19 vs 11-15 where Jesus, as the nobleman, would go away to a far country [ heaven ] before he would return in kingdom glory. The future glory time of Matthew 25 vs 31,32.
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