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Old 03-13-2008, 07:48 PM
 
2,984 posts, read 3,345,832 times
Reputation: 465

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
You are a riot birdy.

You will take all these words and use them to prove Hell where convenient and then, at the end of the day, you'll say hell doesn't really mean hell.

Hell means a reform school God has set up.

Gotta love that selective interpretation!
I trust your evening meal was a delightful experience. If Mrs. Birdbrain does not improve in her supper presentations, she is going to be on probation, or I will take over all duties of the Master Chef position. In fact, I may just throw together some Home Made Chicken soup, with fresh kluski noodles tomorrow(Pa. Style), with a chocolate torte for dessert, made with no flour, and 1/2 lb. of dark chocolate, and five eggs).

I am pleased you consider Birdbrain a real hoot. I have been practicing on Christian threads since cave man days.

Out of the kitchen, Birdbrain!

I am prepared to take every last passage of Canon regarding the four hells, sh@'owl/ hades, tartaroo and gehenna, and the additional passages, not translated as hell, and discuss them until the homemade chicken soup with scratch kluski noodles is hot.

Furthermore, I believe that every Scripture is in complete harmony. The prophets do not contradict the Lord Jesus Christ, nor His apostles. Hell does not mean "everlasting separation", hell does not mean "everlasting torment", nor "eternal torment", nor is hell everlasting as I.L.N.C. insists the Canon declares. The Lord Jesus Christ went to hell after He died, and I guarantee you He was not separated from the Father, and most assuredly not tormented, nor was His soul left in hell!

The Bible Hell

HERE

Last edited by Birdy_56; 03-13-2008 at 08:14 PM..

 
Old 03-13-2008, 07:55 PM
 
2,984 posts, read 3,345,832 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
I could never understand people who believe the bible is the inspired word of God, then proceed to rip it to shreds with changing the meanings, reading between the lines and endless quotes by biblical "scholars" to prove something that is so obviously not there....I believe in letting your belief show in your actions, your words and your deeds, not in how well you "mis"understand the teachings of Christ..
I believe that our God has given us the Sacred Word, the Bible, and knees, and we must learn to use them both.

G. Campbell Morgan

"Whenever a new vision is presented to the trusting soul a new crisis is created for that soul, and the soul will either obey and march into larger life, or disobey and turn backward. The man or woman who has the largest, fullest knowledge of Christ is the man or woman who is most conscious that he or she has hardly yet begun to see His glory.

The Holy Spirit . . . is forever unveiling to the eyes of faithful, watching souls the glory of Christ; and as each new glory is revealed it calls the soul to some new adventure, to some new sacrifice . . . to some new area of spiritual growth."

"Every response to light means fuller understanding and enlarged capacity for further revelation. The true Christian life is a growth, which finds no maturity in this world; the ultimate is never reached in this land of shadows. There is no exhausting of the light and glory and beauty of Christ, and if He has not startled and shamed me recently it is because somewhere in the past I disobeyed and have lost my power to see. Sanctification is progressive, the Spirit of God patiently leading us from point to point in life of faith and light and love, and forevermore astonishing us with new unveilings of the glory of our Master."

The Cross & The Ages To Come

HERE


YouTube - You Raise Me Up
 
Old 03-13-2008, 08:15 PM
 
Location: God's Country
23,013 posts, read 34,374,307 times
Reputation: 31644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
I trust your evening meal was a delightful experience. If Mrs. Birdbrain does not improve in her supper presentations, she is going to be on propation, or I will take over all duties of the Master Chef position. In fact, I may just thtow together some Home Made Chicken soup, with fresh kluski noodles tomorrow(Pa. Style), with a chocolate torte for dessert, made with no flour, and 1/2 lb. of dark chocolate, and five eggs).

I am pleased you consider Birdbrain a real hoot. I have been practicing on Christian threads since cave man days.

Out of the kitchen, Birdbrain!

I am prepared to take every last passage of Canon regarding the four hells, sh@'owl/ hades, tartaroo and gehenna, and the additional passages, not translated as hell, and discuss them until the homemade chicken soup with scratch kluski noodles is hot.

Furthermore, I believe that every Scripture is in complete harmony. The prophets do not contradict the Lord Jesus Christ, nor His apostles. Hell does not mean "everlasting separation", hell does not mean "everlasting torment", nor "eternal torment", nor is hell everlasting as I.L.N.C. insists the Canon declares. The Lord Jesus Christ went to hell after He died, and I guarantee you He was not separated from the Father, and most assuredly not tormented, nor was His soul left in hell!

The Bible Hell

HERE

Birdy, you know I disagree with you here, I do believe the Bible teaches that hell is eternal, otherwise, why tell anyone about Jesus if they are going to be saved in the end anyway. No where in the Bible does it imply or say everyone will be saved.
 
Old 03-13-2008, 08:25 PM
 
7,784 posts, read 14,884,908 times
Reputation: 3478
Well said ILNC!

Very well said!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
Here's some links that all folks should read.

Sad.

To make the Bible say what we want it to rather than what it says is truly sad.

I wish Universalism was true, but God is just.

Universalism

BGEA: Spiritual Help: My Answer (http://www.billygraham.com/MyAnswer_Article.asp?ArticleID=1651 - broken link)

Reason's Why Universalism Is False

Universalism: A Sure Sign of Apostasy (http://www.cultlink.com/sentinel/Universalism.htm - broken link)

All the (((all's))) all covered

Protestant Apologetics and Theology <---a lot of info, including...
Is Universalism Biblical?

Hell, Every Which Way But Loose

A Former Universalist Speaks
Universalism is a great idea that is perpetuated by trying to get God to fit in our own tiny box. If indeed God is God, then the message of a false teaching in Universalism is easily discerned, for it waters down the blood our Savior and makes His death and resurrection irrelevant. And any thing that might lead someone away from the necessity of Christ can not be true. Thinking you get a do-over in the afterlife is great idea, but not supported by scripture. Now is the time. Today is the day. Hesitation can be catastrophic and eternal.
 
Old 03-13-2008, 08:36 PM
 
2,984 posts, read 3,345,832 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Birdy, you know I disagree with you here, I do believe the Bible teaches that hell is eternal,
Just show us, ILNC. The problem, of course, is that you link "eternal" with hell. There is nothing in Scripture that is eternal/ without beginning and ending, but our Lord!

Quote:
otherwise, why tell anyone about Jesus if they are going to be saved in the end anyway. No where in the Bible does it imply or say everyone will be saved.
We declare the majesty of our Lord Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. We declare His lordship, we declare His victory over all things. We proclaim that our God is the Source, the Guide, and the Goal of everything. In the end, every knee bows, every tongue confesses to the great glory of God the Father. Our God is the Saviour of all mankind, but that wonderful word "especially", holds a distinction that sets apart the aparche in a most favoured position of delight to His great heart.

You may not realize this, but I know a few missionaries who are believers in the restitution of all things, and they continue to proclaim Jesus Christ to the heathen. My uncle spent over 50 years in Bolivia, being nearly killed on a couple of occasions by those he laid his life down for. He said "I will die in this land for this people", and he did, and is buriied there among them. My dear girl, the Scriptures declare that the heathen will stand shoulder to shoulder worshipping the Lord....every one of them.

The Prophet Zephaniah

Quote:
The Lord will be terrible unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place and all the isles of the heathen.....Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent, shoulder to shoulder.
Please Note:

1. All men, "every one of them", shall worship the Lord.

2. All the isles of the "heathen" shall worship Him.

3. All nations shall be gathered, all kingdoms assembled.

4. All nations & all kingdoms shall experience the burning of the Lord and the devouring of His fire.

5. The devouring of the Lord is linked with purified lips that call upon the Name of the Lord.

6. All mankind, "all of them", standing shoulder to shoulder, with one consent, shall serve Him.


I cannot tell how He will win the nations,
How He will claim His earthly heritage,
How satisfy the needs and aspirations
Of East and West, of sinner and of sage.
But this I know, all flesh shall see His glory,
And He shall reap the harvest He has sown,
And some glad day His sun shall shine in splendor
When He the Savior, Savior of the world is known.

I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,
When, at His bidding, every storm is stilled,
Or who can say how great the jubilation
When all the hearts of men with love are filled.
But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,
And myriad, myriad human voices sing,
And earth to Heaven, and Heaven to earth, will answer:
At last the Savior, Savior of the world is King!

Sing It HERE
 
Old 03-13-2008, 08:45 PM
 
Location: God's Country
23,013 posts, read 34,374,307 times
Reputation: 31644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Just show us, ILNC.
Been there, typed that a long time ago
Your uncle must have been a special man.
 
Old 03-13-2008, 08:57 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,791,947 times
Reputation: 1247
I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I'm going to put my thoughts down. I've always known what I've believed about hell, but always had trouble expressing those beliefs. A recent book I've read has helped solidify what I've already understood about hell.

Hell is a real place. Hell is eternal separation from God and all the anguish that goes with that separation. I don't believe it is torture, but it's not a reformatory either. There is no second chance in the hereafter. This life and the choices we make in this life determines our eternal destination. I believe our loving God gave humankind free will. Yes, we all have a choice to make about God -- to accept or reject.

If one willfullly rejects God in this life, after all the evidence that is presented them, it truly would be hell for them to be forced to accept heaven after they die. And it would be forced, IMO. In this world, God reveals enough of himself in such a way that we can freely accept him or willfully reject him. To paraphrase CS Lewis, God doesn't compel, he woos. If God revealed too much of himself, it would no longer be faith, but knowledge. It would be so overwhelming we'd have no choice but to accept him.

This robs us of our freedom. Freely giving our love to God is what he wants. To compel someone to love is not freedom and is certainly not loving. This applies to the afterlife as well. Once we're dead, we're in the presence of God. Even those who choose to reject God will face him. Now, if there were second chances, after seeing God face to face, who wouldn't feel compelled to accept Him? But this again is not freely given. There's really no choice involved at that point.

God, who endowed his creation with free will to give us the ability to freely give our love to him or willfully withhold our love and deny him, I believe will respect our choices. To not respect what one freely and without blatant coersion chooses would go against God's character and nature and entire reason for giving us free will in the first place.

Okay, so maybe I haven't totally gotten over my trouble expressing my beliefs about hell. Hopefully you get the idea.
 
Old 03-13-2008, 09:02 PM
 
Location: God's Country
23,013 posts, read 34,374,307 times
Reputation: 31644
Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I'm going to put my thoughts down. I've always known what I've believed about hell, but always had trouble expressing those beliefs. A recent book I've read has helped solidify what I've already understood about hell.

Hell is a real place. Hell is eternal separation from God and all the anguish that goes with that separation. I don't believe it is torture, but it's not a reformatory either. There is no second chance in the hereafter. This life and the choices we make in this life determines our eternal destination. I believe our loving God gave humankind free will. Yes, we all have a choice to make about God -- to accept or reject.

If one willfullly rejects God in this life, after all the evidence that is presented them, it truly would be hell for them to be forced to accept heaven after they die. And it would be forced, IMO. In this world, God reveals enough of himself in such a way that we can freely accept him or willfully reject him. To paraphrase CS Lewis, God doesn't compel, he woos. If God revealed too much of himself, it would no longer be faith, but knowledge. It would be so overwhelming we'd have no choice but to accept him.

This robs us of our freedom. Freely giving our love to God is what he wants. To compel someone to love is not freedom and is certainly not loving. This applies to the afterlife as well. Once we're dead, we're in the presence of God. Even those who choose to reject God will face him. Now, if there were second chances, after seeing God face to face, who wouldn't feel compelled to accept Him? But this again is not freely given. There's really no choice involved at that point.

God, who endowed his creation with free will to give us the ability to freely give our love to him or willfully withhold our love and deny him, I believe will respect our choices. To not respect what one freely and without blatant coersion chooses would go against God's character and nature and entire reason for giving us free will in the first place.

Okay, so maybe I haven't totally gotten over my trouble expressing my beliefs about hell. Hopefully you get the idea.
You express yourself very well mams and I agree with you 100% ( of course we know Birdy won't )
 
Old 03-13-2008, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,616,363 times
Reputation: 851
Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I'm going to put my thoughts down. I've always known what I've believed about hell, but always had trouble expressing those beliefs. A recent book I've read has helped solidify what I've already understood about hell.

Hell is a real place. Hell is eternal separation from God and all the anguish that goes with that separation. I don't believe it is torture, but it's not a reformatory either.
I appreciate your honesty with your beliefs, but let me point out - the lake of fire is in the presence of the Lamb: "into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" so the 'separation' part doesn't work, all this is all done in God's very presence for "and age and an age" Greek 'aion' - you can't have two forevers!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
There is no second chance in the hereafter. This life and the choices we make in this life determines our eternal destination. I believe our loving God gave humankind free will. Yes, we all have a choice to make about God -- to accept or reject.
Well, you believe what most Christians believe there. That's easy to express - preachers say that a billion times a day

Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post

If one willfullly rejects God in this life, after all the evidence that is presented them, it truly would be hell for them to be forced to accept heaven after they die. And it would be forced, IMO. In this world, God reveals enough of himself in such a way that we can freely accept him or willfully reject him. To paraphrase CS Lewis, God doesn't compel, he woos. If God revealed too much of himself, it would no longer be faith, but knowledge. It would be so overwhelming we'd have no choice but to accept him.
Wow, that's an amazing perspective. So, God could just reveal Himself and everyone would willingly choose Him because He's so overwhelming, but that wouldn't be right because He IS so overwhelming and that wouldn't take faith, so He hides Himself and those that can't make the faith leap are doomed for eternity.

I also believe He is overwhelming - you obviously know Him. I personally was overwhelmed by Him and it wasn't much of a chance/choice contest

Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
This robs us of our freedom. Freely giving our love to God is what he wants. To compel someone to love is not freedom and is certainly not loving. This applies to the afterlife as well.
Well, when He compelled me I really wasn't robbed of freedom, I was given freedom for the first time ever. I see the 'logic' here in one way, but in another way, including my personal experience - it's doesn't make any sense at all. It's all about the God shaped hole thing - you see Him, you need Him, it fits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
Once we're dead, we're in the presence of God. Even those who choose to reject God will face him. Now, if there were second chances, after seeing God face to face, who wouldn't feel compelled to accept Him? But this again is not freely given. There's really no choice involved at that point.
Again, this free-will is the most important thing of all thinking breaks down, because, as you already pointed out - when you see Him as He is He's irresistible. I really hope God doesn't decide to ditch me, because I was so stubborn and had to see/sense/feel His overwhelming-ness before I accepted Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post

God, who endowed his creation with free will to give us the ability to freely give our love to him or willfully withhold our love and deny him, I believe will respect our choices. To not respect what one freely and without blatant coersion chooses would go against God's character and nature and entire reason for giving us free will in the first place.

Okay, so maybe I haven't totally gotten over my trouble expressing my beliefs about hell. Hopefully you get the idea.
All I can say here is that I'm stunned with how much you understand and how much you don't understand. I totally see the overwhelming compelling presence of God part. Look at Paul the apostle. He got to see Jesus' power and hear His voice (when He obviously wasn't looking for it). Sarcastically I'll say - THAT'S NOT FAIR!!! Same with the disciples - that got to see Him, even doubting Thomas got to SEE and believe, and Jesus didn't condemn Him for his lack of faith, He even complied with Thomas' request.

So, what I see is that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and it's because - as you said - they will see Him and be overcome by His magnificence. It's just as accepted by God as Thomas' 'had to see' confession or Paul's 'light as bright as the sun' confession or my 'overwhelmed by God's love and presence' confession. I don't think any of the three of us were robbed of our free-will!

I am amazed how close we are on this but how different our conclusions are. You'll also have to go (with your system) with a notion that it is worth it to God to make billions of people so just a few could willingly choose to love Him. He's willing to create eternal beings who can feel misery FOREVER, just so He can have the precious gift of willing lovers. I'm sorry, but that says something terrible about God's nature - and that's why it's not true.

With the logic here and what you see PLUS the many mistranslations about 'eternal' and 'hell' (age and Sheol) I think you really owe it to yourself to study a little deeper.

Consider the fact that NOTHING can exist 'separated' from God. All things exist by Him. NO one can live forever to be in misery by their 'choices' unless God actively sustains their life to do so.

Also consider again that the Lake of fire and what happens there is done IN the presence of the lamb and His holy messengers, and that's where you'll be too. Most Christians who believe in eternal torment want to distance themselves and God from what's happening there. My question is, if it's justice and good and all, why wouldn't we be there rejoicing with them that they weren't robbed of their free-will? I know it sounds silly, but.. why not?

Blessings,
- Byron
 
Old 03-14-2008, 05:26 AM
 
2,984 posts, read 3,345,832 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I'm going to put my thoughts down. I've always known what I've believed about hell, but always had trouble expressing those beliefs. A recent book I've read has helped solidify what I've already understood about hell.
I trust you have been absorbing the Holy Scriptures, and the Son of
God has opened your mind to understand what you are reading. God has given us both a Bible and knees. Learn to use them both them.

Quote:
Hell is a real place.
Hell is indeed a real place: all four of them, plus grave & pit, which the K.J.V. translators saw fit to gloss over in a number of passages.

Quote:
Hell is eternal separation from God and all the anguish that goes with that separation.
If it was possible for there to be a place where God was not, than anguish would have a capital A and still not be capable of grasping. However, the Lord of the universe is omnipresent in every square centimetre of His creation....there is simply no place He is not....even if with the psalmist "We make our bed in hell, behold You are there." And yes, there is nothing....spell that N O T H I N G, that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. That includes both "we" & "they" of the groaning creation. Sin will separate us from relationship with Him, but our God destroys sin in every life: He does not push sin into some corner of the universe, He destroys it...not just sins, the nature of sin!

Quote:
I don't believe it is torture, but it's not a reformatory either.
You got that correct. The road to God is via the flaming swords of the Lord, and His burning Presence.

Quote:
There is no second chance in the hereafter.
Again you are correct. Our Father's Realm is not a gigantic Gambling House of chance. His kingdom is rooted in Himself and He worketh all things after the counsel of His own will. Yep, no first chance, no second chance, no chance!!

Quote:
This life and the choices we make in this life determines our eternal destination. I believe our loving God gave humankind free will. Yes, we all have a choice to make about God -- to accept or reject.
Unfortunately the Lord of the Universe has made all of us slaves/ prisoners of disobedience and we were made sinners "not willingly" but "by reason of Him who made it so." Please read with me....

"For in making all mankind prisoners to disobedience, God's purpose was to show mercy to all mankind."

Quote:
If one willfullly rejects God in this life, after all the evidence that is presented them, it truly would be hell for them to be forced to accept heaven after they die.
I am totally convinced one cannot stand in the Blaze of His glory and be unchanged! However, the vast segments of our world's humanity have never seen, never heard, never once had the claims of the Christ brought to bear upon them. Rest assured: the confessin of every mouth, the bowing in worship of every knee, of every being in every dimension of the heavens, the earth, and the underworld, is not forced worship, it comes out of His Name "in/en Jesus Name" and is rooted in two glorious Greek words: exomologeo and homologeo!

Quote:
And it would be forced, IMO.
Your opinion does not stand in the light of the meaning of Phil. 2 and the scope of exomologeo and homologeo!

Quote:
This robs us of our freedom.
Repeat after me..."In making all mankind prisoners of disobedience" & "through the disobedience of one, the mass of mankind were "made sinners", and that, "not willingly" or "not by any choice of its own."

Quote:
Freely giving our love to God is what he wants. To compel someone to love is not freedom and is certainly not loving. This applies to the afterlife as well. Once we're dead, we're in the presence of God. Even those who choose to reject God will face him. Now, if there were second chances, after seeing God face to face, who wouldn't feel compelled to accept Him? But this again is not freely given. There's really no choice involved at that point.
We will inform St. Paul immediately of your assumption. And most certainly the prophet Zephaniah needs to know that the "heathen" will not worship Him in the Day of the Lord, standing shoulder to shoulder! We will withold notification to Isaiah and Hosea till we can get an alert off first to St. Paul.

Quote:
God, who endowed his creation with free will to give us the ability to freely give our love to him or willfully withhold our love and deny him, I believe will respect our choices.
The Father does not displace His Will for the will of grass! His will is that all mankind shall be saved: and I assure you, the tense of the Koine is intense, He willeth, marking a determinate purpose.

-Arthur Custance-

Quote:
What then does man have in his unredeemed, totally depraved state upon which God can act? He has eyes, but is blind. God can restore his vision. He has ears that are deaf. God can open his ears. He has a heart, but it is of stone. God can convert it to a heart of flesh. He has a spirit, but it is dead. God can make it live. So God has made man with the capacity to see, hear, and act responsively to his inspiring, but he cannot act until he is made alive. He cannot come forth from the tomb until he has been given a new life. Only then does he hear the voice of God saying, 'Come forth.' -Arthur Custance-
Quote:
When the Lord knocks at the door of a man's heart he cannot hear for he is deaf. Only when God opens his ears does he hear. And even then when he hears he is likely at first to say, 'I am in no convenient position to open. My children are in bed, the door is locked, we are 'closed for the night,' please don't bother me now' Only the caller's persistence, not the householder's desire to entertain the caller, drives him in the end to open the door; the Spirit of God acting upon his heart makes him a willing host. It is God's persistent knocking at the door of man's heart and not man's persistent knocking at the gates of heaven that brings the elect finally to salvation. Such, then, is the nature of the Total Depravity of man.-Arthur Custance-

"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends. Amen!

Of him (ex autou),

Through him (di' autou),

Unto him (eiv auton

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta pavnte) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the.....

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

For ever= eiv touv aiwnav= "For the ages."

Alford terms this doxology in verses 33-36 "the sublimest apostrophe existing even in the pages of inspiration itself."
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