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Old 10-11-2008, 05:26 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,406,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
Interesting that it takes books by men to 'teach' something from the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
No discerning individual could pick up just a bible and come to the conclusion you universalists come to.

Response: Depends on which Bible you pick up.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html

Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

Question:
Did ANY of you come to universalism on your own or did you have to be taught this from the mouths of men?
Now we'll get the well, the hell thing didn't 'seem' right to me so I knew it couldn't be true'.....so we get ourselves to believe a gospel that 'feels' right to us and keeps us from a gospel that REQUIRES repentance.

Response: In my case, it was either discover Christian Biblical universalism, or be locked away for the rest of my life in a mental hospital.
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

Simply put, there's no urgency(or necessity for that matter) in a Universalist's gospel.....and there is in Christ's gospel.
Response: I have never met an eternal tormentor who consistantly acts like they believe in eternal torment. They all go about their daily lives watching TV, going to sports and theaters, eating, and sleeping while most of their neighbors and the rest of the world are supposedly dying and going to "eternal hell."

In contrast to this read the last paragraph about the attitude of J. Preston Eby, one of the great current teachers of Christian Biblical universalism.
GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED: I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; God's Oath - To Save All; The Justification Of All Mankind; Mercy Upon All; Why Teach Salvation For All?

His great work on Christian Biblical universalism can be read at
Savior of the World Series
or
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World

The atheist Nitchke said, "If I believed in eternal hell I would crawl across England on my bare knees on cut glass to take the gospel to just one person."

 
Old 10-11-2008, 05:41 AM
 
Location: NC
14,879 posts, read 17,151,542 times
Reputation: 1527
Quote:
Did ANY of you come to universalism on your own or did you have to be taught this from the mouths of men?
Alpha, did you hear the gospel from the mouths of men? Did you have to be taught the gospel, the good news of Jesus? I was taught the good news of Jesus, believed it by the work of God, and the good news is that Jesus died for our sins. Without the death and resurrection of Christ none of us would be reconciled to God. It's all about Jesus and what He has done for us, for all of us.

Quote:
Universal restoration is not apart from Christs gospel - the good news is that all will be restored but each in their own order ....... As in adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive
Those who believe and understand that Jesus died and rose for them can have a new life in Christ Jesus and those who believe and understand will live their lives accordingly. I believe repentance is necessary, and that all will repent due to the work and plan of God. The scriptures teach that God will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth and I believe that He can and will accomplish whatever He purposes. Many scriptures speak to the restoration of all.



Quote:
You will note that the command to pray for all men is rooted in the fact that God WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. We must ever distinguish between the fact of the salvation of all and the manner in which God brings it to pass. He condescends to work through human instrumentality. Since God purposes to save all men, He has a PLAN, a PROCESS, and an INSTRUMENTALITY by which to accomplish this! ...To be commanded to pray for all men, intercede for all men, when only a few, a mere handful would ever be affected by that prayer could represent either utter foolishness or absolute impotence on God's part, for the devil would win out in the end anyway (em. web ed.), possessing for ever the souls of those on behalf of whom we had done battle! Ah, dear ones, the salvation of all men in no measure diminishes our responsibility to the lost; it INCREASES IT A HUNDRED AND SIXTY BILLION FOLD!

J.P. Eby

Thanks for sharing, Rodger. I've never read this by J.P. Eby. The whole article makes some excellent points.



God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-11-2008 at 06:21 AM..
 
Old 10-11-2008, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Pilot Point, TX
7,874 posts, read 14,176,247 times
Reputation: 4819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
Question:

Did ANY of you come to universalism on your own or did you have to be taught this from the mouths of men?
Alpha - good question and one that I wanted to answer. I grew in this knowledge as well as becoming friends with Charles Slagle (who has written several pieces out of his life experiences), and was compounded and confirmed for years as the Lord opened me up to His greatness. It's hard to explain but once I saw it, everything shouted from the mountaintops that He is Lord of the Sabbath, Lord of His creation (Satan too) the Author and Finisher, and the keys to death, hell and the grave are His.

We should remember that our relationship with God isn't born from the teachings of men (as Shana said) but is confirmed by the spoken word. I can't tell you how often things were taught that I and others would then look at each other and say, "Yes! I already had that in my spirit!"

God teaches each and every one of us in His time, and according to our walk; a doctrine or system of beliefs is worthless unless it has been made a part of the messenger - it is then life to the messenger and is meat for the listener.
 
Old 10-11-2008, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,406,097 times
Reputation: 259
Default Why we believe the scriptures teach universal salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Alpha, did you hear the gospel from the mouths of men? Did you have to be taught the gospel, the good news of Jesus? I was taught the good news of Jesus, believed it by the work of God, and the good news is that Jesus died for our sins. Without the death and resurrection of Christ none of us would be reconciled to God. It's all about Jesus and what He has done for us, for all of us.
Those who believe and understand that Jesus died and rose for them can have a new life in Christ Jesus and those who believe and understand will live their lives accordingly. I believe repentance is necessary, and that all will repent due to the work and plan of God. The scriptures teach that God will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth and I believe that He can and will accomplish whatever He purposes. Many scriptures speak to the restoration of all.

Thanks for sharing, Rodger. I've never read this by J.P. Eby. The whole article makes some excellent points.
God bless.
1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?
1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?
1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?
Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?
Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will Can your will overcome His?
Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world Why don't we believe it?
Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself To roast or to love?
Col 1:16 By Him all were created Will He lose a part of His creation?
Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live The same all?
1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live Again, the same all?
Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?
Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit See what I mean?
Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved But most Jews don't believe yet!
Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all How plain can you get?
Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people Is there joy is "hell"?
Heb 8:11,12 All will know God How long, O Lord?
Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come Have we judged Him before the time?
Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all Experientially to prophetically?
Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty How much of creation?
Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God There's that word "all" again.
1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God What for?
Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy Is "hell" mercy?
Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God's judgments are seen Could His judgment be mercy?
Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all All?
Rm 11:36 All out of, through, and into Him All into Him?
Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things Including "hell?"
Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God Including Satan?
1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all What does that mean, preacher?
Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new "All" made new?
Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live How many will hear?
Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth How will the "righteous" judge, judge?
1 Cor 3:15 All saved, so as by fire How can fire save you?
Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire Including you?
Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?
2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all Did He died in vain?
Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things Does "things" include people?
Jn 3:35 All has been given into Jesus' hands Can you accept this?
Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him How many did the Father give Him?
Jn 13:35 The Father gave Him all things Study the word "things" in the Greek.
1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all! Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost How far is "uttermost?"
1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed Including "lake of fire" which is "second death?"
Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure Does Old Testament agree with the New?
Gen 18:18 All families of the earth will be blessed Here comes that word "all" again.
Dan 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth What can defeat His will?
Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return How can one return from "destruction?"
Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations All nations?
Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive Kills to bring life?
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps What about "free will?"
Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands So much for "free will."
La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)
Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house "All" nations?
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him "All" nations!
Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified Including the wicked ones?
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God Are you catching on?
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God That sounds wondrous.
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things I wish we would believe that.
Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored Really?
Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored to former estate Sounds impossible.
Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him Nothing? No, nothing!
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him For what purpose?
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him Praise His name!
Ps 145:9 He is good to all Including your worst enemies.
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works Let's start believing that.
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall Who hasn't fallen in sin?
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him For "eternal torment?"
Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people And you are invited.
Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire This came from the carnal mind.
Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless He draws them You can't "chose" to follow Him.
Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself Amen!!!
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?
 
Old 10-12-2008, 09:09 PM
 
Location: NC
14,879 posts, read 17,151,542 times
Reputation: 1527
Thanks, Rodger! God bless.
 
Old 10-12-2008, 09:35 PM
 
Location: NC
14,879 posts, read 17,151,542 times
Reputation: 1527
I love it, Rodger I will keep it and I will try to find some of my favorites when I get a chance. I haven't memorized any yet...Please share some more when you have time. God bless.
 
Old 10-12-2008, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,406,097 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Thanks, Rodger! God bless.

Here is my favorite quote outside of the Bible that I have had memorized for many years and frequently quote.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead

I love it
 
Old 10-12-2008, 09:37 PM
 
Location: NC
14,879 posts, read 17,151,542 times
Reputation: 1527
Does Dr. Weatherhead have a site? God bless.
 
Old 10-12-2008, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,406,097 times
Reputation: 259
He died in 1976. But there is a lot about him when you type Leslie Weatherhead into Google.
 
Old 10-16-2008, 10:04 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 6,271,459 times
Reputation: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?
His will is that people will be saved by accepting Him of their own choice. He will not force anyone to repent... that is not His will.
Quote:
1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?
Yes, that is His desire, and He does give every person a certain knowledge, but it is up to us to follow the knowledge He has given us. If we follow it, which is His desire, we will go into deeper knowledge. If we refuse, we will not.
Quote:
1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?
KJV reads "Who gave Himself a ransom for all" (talking about Christ.) Yes, Christ became the remedy for our inherent sin.. we need to all accept this remedy for our own lives.
Quote:
Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?
His sacrifice has the ability to cover everybody if all repent. That depends on if we accept the remedy.
Quote:
Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will Can your will overcome His?
His will is that repentant sinners will gain heaven, unrepentant sinners will be judged in hell. While in this life we can go against His will, at the judgment all will be forced to submit to His judgment on the deeds we have done in our body, as His will is carried out.
Quote:
Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world Why don't we believe it?
To repeat myself, His sacrifice will absolutely cover every repentant sinner. That depends on if we accept the remedy.
Quote:
Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself To roast or to love?
Jesus calls each one, and all are drawn to His love at some point in time. However, the devil is also calling us and it is our choice who we will give our heart to.
Quote:
Col 1:16 By Him all were created Will He lose a part of His creation?
Yes.
Quote:
Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live The same all?
1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live Again, the same all?
Truly, Christ is the only answer for all to live again. However, if we deny our death, we will not become alive. As other scripture states, the way to accept this life is to repent at the Spirit's call.
Quote:
Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?
Christ truly fulfilled all, and all things will be subject to Him. However, being subject also means being judged, including being eternally damned to hell if we have refused the call.
Quote:
Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
At the end of time, all will admit that Jesus is Lord.. however, for many it will be too little too late.
Quote:
1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit See what I mean?
We cannot come to Christ or confess He is the Christ except by a "vision" of the Holy Spirit. He tells this to all men, but unfortunately many deny this.
Quote:
Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved But most Jews don't believe yet!
Verse 23 reads "IF they abide not still in unbelief, God will graft them in again". "So (in that way) all Israel will be saved" (by believing). That is the only way, and God will not force this on them.
Quote:
Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all How plain can you get?
Sorry, you're going to have to be a lot plainer for this to mean universal salvation. The verses following those (22-24) talk about those that will not hear being destroyed, and those that turn away from their iniquities shall be blessed. At the end of time the devil and his followers will be trampled under foot and God's plan will be complete.
Quote:
Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people Is there joy is "hell"?
Jesus truly brings joy to all.. but some prefer the "joy" of the world.
Quote:
Heb 8:11,12 All will know God How long, O Lord?
This scripture in context is talking about the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit, where each one can have the law of God written in their heart as a guide, upon repentance.
Quote:
Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come Have we judged Him before the time?
Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all Experientially to prophetically?
(to continue Titus 2:11) "... teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."
Quote:
Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty How much of creation?
The curse of sin has caused the very earth to groan, but there is a remedy, and in the end God will trample sin underfoot.
Quote:
Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God There's that word "all" again.
Yup, there it is, but keep reading. Verse 23 has an important word too. "IF you continue in the faith....."
Quote:
1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God What for?
I'm not sure what this is talking about, but using this to promote universal reconciliation is a real stretch.
Quote:
Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy Is "hell" mercy?
The first part of the verse reads "And we count them happy which endure".
Quote:
Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God's judgments are seen Could His judgment be mercy?
God's judgments are shown to all nations, and the gospel is open to all. Also, at the judgment, all will acknowledge God's power, but the time of mercy will be past.
Quote:
Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all All?
If all repent.
Quote:
Rm 11:36 All out of, through, and into Him All into Him?
Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things Including "hell?"
Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God Including Satan?
1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all What does that mean, preacher?
God truly will have the last word.
Quote:
Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new "All" made new?
Satan's curse of sin will cover God's creation no more after after the judgment.
Quote:
Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live How many will hear?
The ones who chose to respond.This verse clearly gives you the impression that there are those who will not hear.
Quote:
Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth How will the "righteous" judge, judge?
The way He will judge is shown in the following verse: "They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Quote:
1 Cor 3:15 All saved, so as by fire How can fire save you?
You're getting a little liberal with your "all's". This verse does not contain that word. It is speaking of the refining fire we can undergo in this life to purify us.. however, we are not promised this after death.
Quote:
Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire Including you?
In other words.. everyone will have to pass through God's judgment. If we are not covered by Jesus' sacrifice, we will burn.
Quote:
Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?
No.
Quote:
2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all Did He died in vain?
The salvation remedy is available to all now.
Quote:
Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
It pleases the Father to have His will carried out, which will include eternal judgment on sin.
Quote:
Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things Does "things" include people?
Jn 3:35 All has been given into Jesus' hands Can you accept this?
All things will be subject to Him. Our salvation will be judged by whether we are covered by His sacrifice, or whether we have rejected it.
Quote:
Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him How many did the Father give Him?
Those that follow the conditions of repentance
Quote:
Jn 13:35 The Father gave Him all things Study the word "things" in the Greek.
All things are subject to Him upon His sacrifice, whereby all will be judged.
Quote:
1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all! Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
We also must not try to get away from verse 16 "continue in them, for in so doing thou shalt save thyself.."
Quote:
Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost How far is "uttermost?"
He is able to reach and call each and every person on the face of the earth, in the time given them, and will judge justly accordingly.
Quote:
1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed Including "lake of fire" which is "second death?"
At the end of time there will be no more earthly death.
Quote:
Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure Does Old Testament agree with the New?
His pleasure includes judgment on sin.
Quote:
Gen 18:18 All families of the earth will be blessed Here comes that word "all" again.
In Jesus, all families will be blessed. Read John 3:16 to find out how we can become "in Jesus".
Quote:
Dan 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth What can defeat His will?
His will includes judgment on sin.
Quote:
Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
We are not given an opportunity to repent beyond the grave.
Quote:
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return How can one return from "destruction?"
By repenting.
Quote:
Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations All nations?
The curse of sin over all nations was broken by Jesus' sacrifice. Now all can repent and be healed.
Quote:
Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive Kills to bring life?
??
Quote:
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
Yes, God made everybody.
Quote:
Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps What about "free will?"
Just because God is directing, doesn't mean that we are forced to follow His direction.
Quote:
Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands So much for "free will."
God's counsel stands, but counsel has nothing to do with "free will". Will we follow His counsel?
Quote:
La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)
He made a remedy.
Quote:
Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house "All" nations?
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him "All" nations!
Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified Including the wicked ones?
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God Are you catching on?
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God That sounds wondrous.
The salvation plan of repentance is open to all.
Quote:
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things I wish we would believe that.
Truly, He is amazing!
Quote:
Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored Really?
Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored to former estate Sounds impossible.
Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him Nothing? No, nothing!
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him For what purpose?
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him Praise His name!
Ps 145:9 He is good to all Including your worst enemies.
These prophecies spoke of Jesus' sacrifice, which made a remedy for the curse of sin. We can accept this upon repentance.
Quote:
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works Let's start believing that.
Truly, God is merciful to all. However, there will be no mercy at the judgment for unrepentant sinners.
Quote:
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall Who hasn't fallen in sin?
We all have.. and thanks be to God for His mercy and forgiveness when we repent!
Quote:
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him For "eternal torment?"
Even His judgment on sin praises Him, for it shows His sovereignty.
Quote:
Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people And you are invited.
Will you come?
Quote:
Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire This came from the carnal mind.
and also from Satan. Which is why God made a remedy to escape that.
Quote:
Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless He draws them You can't "chose" to follow Him. Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself Amen!!!
No one can come to Him without the call of the Holy Spirit. However, many disregard the call.
Quote:
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?
He will take pleasure in welcoming the saved into heaven, and will take pleasure in judging the devil and his followers. That is His will.

In closing, thank you for these verses. I don't know when it has been clearer to me how the false teaching of universal reconciliation is made up only of verses clearly taken out of context, ignoring clear scripture, and twisted to fit the agenda.

It is a doctrine of the devil, the father of lies.

May all who truly desire the Truth be able to see this, is my prayer.
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