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Old 10-16-2008, 12:15 PM
 
3,086 posts, read 6,271,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.

But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved. That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.

SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
God is God. He requires and receives our love regardless of what He has done or will do. I agree with you that it is easier to love a "god" which does not require us to deny the flesh, however, that is the god of the world and will not save us.

(BTW, you didn't mentioned the God who is able to reach all mankind in this life, reveal Himself to them, and judge justly according to the choices they made in life, with those who have knowingly accepted Him going to eternal paradise, and those who have knowingly rejected Him going to eternal damnation. That's the God of the Bible... and He is who He is whether we love Him or not.)

 
Old 10-16-2008, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,405,881 times
Reputation: 259
Default Working ALL THINGS after the councel of His own will

Quote:
but the sincere seeker with the Holy Spirit can overcome this.
Yes this is true, but only according to God's timing. As my hero Ray Prinzing puts it, "It is God alone Who decides which false cult we get involved in, and it is God alone Who decides how long we stay in that cult.
Eph. 1:11

Google up Ray Prinzing to learn the kind of God he saw in the Bible.
There are many Ray Prinzing Google pages.
 
Old 10-16-2008, 12:22 PM
 
7,784 posts, read 14,884,908 times
Reputation: 3478
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Will it give you pleasure CG81 to explain all those scriptures away too?
cg81 can't explain ANY of those scriptures away! He can't! And that's why he won't.

HOWEVER, supposedly we both know someone who can give us an answer on this....let's ask Him, shall we?

Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'

"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. Luke 13:23-29


Now I ask you, if the answer to the question of "Will only a few be saved?" was "No, everyone will be saved!" then why didn't Christ say that?

Clearly....I mean CRYSTAL clearly, the answer was given that once the door is closed, it's closed. "many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading".

So either Christ is a liar or Universalists are.

What's your pick?
 
Old 10-16-2008, 12:24 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,895 posts, read 3,687,881 times
Reputation: 1130
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Let's look at the verse you are referring to in context :
2 Peter 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
If you were reading these verses for the very first time, what conclusion would you come to? I know it's impossible for you to give an unbiased answer.. maybe we should ask an atheist to tell us what their impression is!
There is wrath coming to all that have believed the lie but that wrath is not eternal. Those that resist the truth will need to learn the truth the proud will be humbled, the humble will be exalted.

Some say how can sin against an infinite God deserve a finite punishment but by the same token how can a finite being deserve an infinite punishment. As finite being who were inwillingly by no choice of our own given physical life with temptations, deception we do deserve death - we don't deserve eternal punishment.

CG81

Judgement can be punishment but it also is decision both for or against, - the final judgement is about reaping what you have sown not if you have believed - belief has been mistranslated where the original meaning was having faith in and being faithful.

Too many are blindly having faith in Jesus and not seeking truth - there pastor says Jesus is truth believe Jesus is God and he will save you. God says I am saviour there is no other saviour. God saves us through his son - Jesus does not save us by himself he said I can do nothing without the Father - my Father is greater than I.

There are so many false doctrines in christianity and it is admitted but it is said that that is not important, it is ok to have false doctrine as long as we hold onto Jesus. We are also warned that God will send delusion to those so that they will believe the lie, because they did not receive the love of truth 2 Th 2:11
 
Old 10-16-2008, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,405,881 times
Reputation: 259
Default Free will is a fallacy

Quote:
(BTW, you didn't mentioned the God who is able to reach all mankind in this life, reveal Himself to them, and judge justly according to the choices they made in life, with those who have knowingly accepted Him going to eternal paradise, and those who have knowingly rejected Him going to eternal damnation. That's the God of the Bible... and He is who He is whether we love Him or not.)
Moderator cut: personal attacks

"Free will" is a fallacy

If God is really not willing that any perish, then why will they perish? Don't give me this free will nonsense. "No man can come to Me," Jesus said, "except the Father draw him" (John 6:44). Salvation is indeed a gift from God, sovereignly given, to whomever God chooses, when He chooses, and He will indeed grant it to all mankind, in due time (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). It does not depend on man's acceptance. Left to themselves, no man would ever choose God (Rom. 3:10-11). At the present time, God bestows benefits of life, food, health, rain, etc, to saints and sinners alike (Acts 17:25). He also has ordained for all mankind to experience a portion of both good and evil as well. The experiences of life are all preparatory to, and in anticipation of, our eternal life with God.

Some say all are given equal opportunity . . . "? Nonsense. This is patently untrue. The Scriptures clearly show that all mankind was plunged into it's present state of being lost by the actions of one man, Adam (Rom. 5:12). All mankind are born sinners. In the history of the world, very few of mankind have ever been given the opportunity to believe in the "only name given under heaven, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Salvation is a gift, sovereignly given to those of God's choice. It is offered to no one. It was procured by the obedience of One Man, Christ Jesus, and His death on the cross (Rom. 5:15-18). It is for all mankind, it is presently enjoyed by all who believe, and will be bestowed on all mankind in due time (Romans 3:22, Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). God's mercy is based on the fact that all sin has been judged in the person of His Son. God has subjected the whole creation to the experience of evil, in order to extend mercy to all (Rom 8:20). Romans 1:20 says that man is without excuse for denying God's existence. But the free gift of salvation has not yet been revealed to all mankind; only to a few now, in due time to all (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6).
Google up IS MAN A FREE MORAL AGENT
 
Old 10-16-2008, 12:26 PM
 
7,784 posts, read 14,884,908 times
Reputation: 3478
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I do agree that the sincere seeker after truth needs to trust the HOLY Spirit of God - not just any spirit and not any man and that includes pastors, various internet people but we are to try all things holding onto that which is good and holy. The HOLY Spirit will never go against Gods Holy 10 commandments. The bible can and has been manipulate, mistranslated and had bias inserted into but the sincere seeker with the Holy Spirit can overcome this.
Do you really believe that?

I mean, do you REALLY believe it?

You REALLY believe someone can and could pick up a bible, read it, and come to the conclusion of Universalism?

If so, I TOTALLY disagree. I see no way any person could read the New Testament and all of Christ's teachings on hell and punishment and eternal separation from God and come away thinking 'Yep, we're all good!'
 
Old 10-16-2008, 12:28 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,895 posts, read 3,687,881 times
Reputation: 1130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
cg81 can't explain ANY of those scriptures away! He can't! And that's why he won't.

HOWEVER, supposedly we both know someone who can give us an answer on this....let's ask Him, shall we?

Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'

"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. Luke 13:23-29


Now I ask you, if the answer to the question of "Will only a few be saved?" was "No, everyone will be saved!" then why didn't Christ say that?

Clearly....I mean CRYSTAL clearly, the answer was given that once the door is closed, it's closed. "many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading".

So either Christ is a liar or Universalists are.

What's your pick?
Christ is not a liar, few will be saved from wrath but all will NOT be eternally tormented. God is just and merciful he will repay good and evil deeds
 
Old 10-16-2008, 12:30 PM
 
7,784 posts, read 14,884,908 times
Reputation: 3478
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Christ is not a liar, few will be saved from wrath but all will NOT be eternally tormented. God is just and merciful he will repay good and evil deeds
Nice dodge.

Please show me where Christ was asked 'Will few be saved from wrath?'

God is not the author of confusion.

Jesus means what He says.

Our sins, unbelief, and lack of repentance has eternal consequences.

Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'

"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. Luke 13:23-29
 
Old 10-16-2008, 12:31 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,895 posts, read 3,687,881 times
Reputation: 1130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
Do you really believe that?

I mean, do you REALLY believe it?

You REALLY believe someone can and could pick up a bible, read it, and come to the conclusion of Universalism?

If so, I TOTALLY disagree. I see no way any person could read the New Testament and all of Christ's teachings on hell and punishment and eternal separation from God and come away thinking 'Yep, we're all good!'
There is going to be wrath against all unrighteousness it is not eternal wrath though. It is finite wrath for finite beings.
 
Old 10-16-2008, 12:34 PM
 
7,784 posts, read 14,884,908 times
Reputation: 3478
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
There is going to be wrath against all unrighteousness it is not eternal wrath though. It is finite wrath for finite beings.
Again, you dodged the question.

You said that someone should use the Word and Holy Spirit and study what the Bible said and my assertion is that no one would ever come to Universalism doing that.

I asked if you really believed what you typed.

It appears you might not.
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