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Old 12-06-2013, 11:53 AM
 
Location: USA
17,157 posts, read 9,826,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The sad truth is, most of Christendom would walk away from everything that pertains to life and godliness and live how they wanted to, if it was made known to them that eternal hell does not exist.
Why not live how we want to?,is what the heart of Christendom asks if all are saved. Not understanding what they are saying. Why would you want to live how you want to, do you not realize that the majority of folk that don't believe have a better attitude to life than that?. Does it really take a belief in the existence of eternal hell to keep you in line?, if that is the case, you've heard another gospel. The gospel of the scriptures is not only good news, but one of life and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost and supplied in abundance.
Very good point, pcamps.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,371,625 times
Reputation: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Iraneus:

Christ, who was called the Son of God before the ages, was manifested in the fullness of time, in order that He might cleanse us through His blood, who were under the power of sin, presenting us as pure sons to His Father, if we yield ourselves obediently to the chastisement of the Spirit. And in the end of time He shall come to do away with all evil, and to reconcile all things, in order that there may be an end of all impurities.

Clement of Alexandria:

“But necessary corrections, through the goodness of the great Overseeing Judge, both by the attendant angels, and through various preliminary judgments, or through the Great and Final Judgment, compel egregious sinners to repent.

“We say that the fire purifies not the flesh but sinful souls, not an all-devouring vulgar fire, but the ‘wise fire’ as we call it, the fire that ‘pierceth the soul’ which passes through it.”

“Punishment is, in its operation, like medicine; it dissolves the hard heart, purges away the filth of uncleanness, and reduces the swellings of pride and haughtiness; thus restoring its subject to a sound and healthful state.”

“ ‘And not only for our sins,’ that is, for those of the faithful, is the Lord the Propitiator does he say, ‘but also for the whole world.’ He, indeed, saves all; but some He saves converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily He saves with dignity of honour; so that ‘every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, or things on earth, and things under the earth’—that is, angels and men.”

Origen:

“The Sacred Scripture does, indeed, call our God ‘a consuming fire’ [Heb. 12:29], and says that ‘rivers of fire go before His face’ [Dan. 7:10], and that ‘He shall come as a refiner’s fire and purify the people’ [Mal. 3:2-3]. As therefore, God is a consuming fire; what is it that is to be consumed by Him? We say it is wickedness, and whatever proceeds from it, such as is figuratively called ‘wood, hay, and stubble’ [1 Cor. 3:15]—which denote the evil works of man. Our God is a consuming fire in this sense; and He shall come as a refiner’s fire to purify rational nature from the alloy of wickedness and other impure matter which has adulterated the intellectual gold and silver; consuming whatever evil is admixed in all the soul.”

Gregory of Nazienzen:

“These (apostates), if they will, may go our way, which indeed is Christ’s; but if not, let them go their own way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only very painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice.”

Gregory - Bishop of Nyassa

“33. So I begin by asking what is the truth that the divine apostle intends to convey in this passage? It is this. In due course evil will pass over into non-existence; it will disappear utterly from the realm of existence. Divine and uncompounded goodness will encompass within itself every rational nature; no single being created by God will fail to achieve the kingdom of God. The evil that is now present in everything will be consumed like a base metal melted by the purifying flame. Then everything which derives from God will be as it was in the beginning before it had ever received an admixture of evil. . .

Me:

LET THAT FIRE BURN HOT I SAY. I LOVE THAT LAKE OF FIRE.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Florida
9,128 posts, read 6,467,387 times
Reputation: 6682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Dave, I studied and contemplated just as you have. Even when I was a "100% bible-believing Christian" I came to different conclusions than you have about the subject of this thread. If you can admit that you don't know everything, then why can't you also admit that what you think you do know might not be the truth? And when you can't reasonably explain why you believe as you do, that could very well be a clue that what you're saying has a flaw somewhere worth checking into. If you think that's me looking to get a "gotcha" moment, you're wrong.

Now, something in your response that I found odd... You said that "accusers don't want answers they want justice..." And this is a problem, why?
What conclusion have I reached? it's Ok to go back and check. Truth is knowable, truth does not need affirmation from anyone to be truth. There is a difference in being wrong and being a liar. My heart and mind are set vertically not constantly looking over my shoulder believing hellboy is chasing me. Read my posts... don't be an accuser.

Your need for justice might include those falsely accused, so answers help the wise make good decisions.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:30 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
28,856 posts, read 21,217,541 times
Reputation: 13246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is not 'my' lake of fire.

God has, by means of general or natural revelation through His creation, made His existence known to man (Romans 1:18-20). When in the course of human development a person becomes aware as a result of that natural revelation that God exists, he becomes responsible to God for what he does with that awareness.

It can be deduced based on the fact that God is perfectly just and fair, and cannot be unjust or unfair to any person, that if any person dies without being able to come to that awareness, whether he be a young child, or a person regardless of age who because of lack of mental capacity cannot come to such an awareness, he is automatically saved because of Christ's work on the cross. Now, when through general or natural revelation, a person has become aware that God exists he will either desire to find out something about God, or he will be indifferent regarding God. If a person desires to know God, then God will make sure that that person receives the specific revelation of Jesus Christ through the gospel message, at which point that person must respond to the gospel through faith in Christ if he is to be eternally saved.

Because God is omniscience and has always known all the facts, He is able to steer and direct the events of human history so that at any given point of time in history the gospel can get to wherever positive volition exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Now see, it wasn't such a terrible thing to explain how your position makes sense in your own mind, was it?
I've explained this issue at least two or three times in the past when it has come up on this forum.


Quote:
Mike, how did you come to the conclusion that some people are exceptions to what you believe are the rules about how not to end up in eternal torment? You rely completely on the bible for your beliefs, correct? Are there passages that you believe support your conclusion?
As I said, it is a matter of deduction that since God is just, and fair, and cannot be otherwise, then it would be unfair for God to leave in condemnation those who simply cannot come to an awareness of His existence, which is necessary before one can make a volitional response to the Gospel concerning Jesus Christ.

The only passage I can think of which has direct bearing on this matter concerns King David's attitude concerning the death of his child. David knew that his child would not return to him but that he would go to his child.
2 Samuel 12:21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22] He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live. 23] But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

And there are no rules about how not to end up in eternal torment. You need only take possession of the free gift of eternal life by simply personally relying on Christ. That is what it means to believe on Christ.

The Question asked!
Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
The Answer given!
Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Each of the jailers household personally responded to the gospel message given by Paul and Silas, and as a result they were all eternally saved (Acts 16:34).


Both the Old Testament and the New Testament state that eternal life is free.
Isaiah 55:1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
Compare with Revelation 22:17.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:34 PM
 
1,493 posts, read 1,216,543 times
Reputation: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Balderdash.

Your question has been answered multiple of times but you don't like it ... which is nobody's fault but your own.
  • Romans 6:23 .... is your answer
  • Hebrews 11:6 ... is your answer
  • Romans 1:20 .... is your answer
  • Exodus 20:5 .... is your answer
  • Deuteronomy 5:9 .... is your answer
The solution isn't to whine \ complain and then blame your imaginary boggy man the "fundamentalists". There is a reason why Jesus said:
Matthew 9:38 Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.”

Luke 10:2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.

and that reason is because:
  • Romans 6:23 .... is THE TRUTH ............ COMPRENDE ?
  • Hebrews 11:6 ... is THE TRUTH ............ COMPRENDE ?
  • Romans 1:20 .... is THE TRUTH ............ COMPRENDE ?
  • Exodus 20:5 .... is THE TRUTH ............ COMPRENDE ?
  • Deuteronomy 5:9 .... is THE TRUTH ............ COMPRENDE ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
It is not 'my' lake of fire.

God has, by means of general or natural revelation through His creation, made His existence known to man (Romans 1:18-20). When in the course of human development a person becomes aware as a result of that natural revelation that God exists, he becomes responsible to God for what he does with that awareness.

It can be deduced based on the fact that God is perfectly just and fair, and cannot be unjust or unfair to any person, that if any person dies without being able to come to that awareness, whether he be a young child, or a person regardless of age who because of lack of mental capacity cannot come to such an awareness, he is automatically saved because of Christ's work on the cross. Now, when through general or natural revelation, a person has become aware that God exists he will either desire to find out something about God, or he will be indifferent regarding God. If a person desires to know God, then God will make sure that that person receives the specific revelation of Jesus Christ through the gospel message, at which point that person must respond to the gospel through faith in Christ if he is to be eternally saved.

Because God is omniscience and has always known all the facts, He is able to steer and direct the events of human history so that at any given point of time in history the gospel can get to wherever positive volition exists.
Wow.. Twin, comparing your response to Mikes and seeing how one response has some moral sense using other scriptural ideas to make God at least relatively morally sensible and the other (yours) callously uses somewhat out of context verses to show that the poor boy is doomed to hell, I'd say your own words make the Fundamentalist boogeyman real. That boogeyman says: "Boogidy! boogidy! Don't question my interpretation of what God says even if its morally questionable by any known standard of morality! Boogidy! boogidy! It is the way it is and thats the way it is! Boogidy boo!" ....comprende senor?

Last edited by Jrhockney; 12-06-2013 at 12:51 PM..
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Old 12-06-2013, 01:53 PM
 
Location: USA
17,157 posts, read 9,826,068 times
Reputation: 2350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn View Post
What conclusion have I reached?
You said: "Yes... even the Gospel has bad news... I get that." That is a much different conclusion than I reached.

Quote:
it's Ok to go back and check. Truth is knowable, truth does not need affirmation from anyone to be truth. There is a difference in being wrong and being a liar. My heart and mind are set vertically not constantly looking over my shoulder believing hellboy is chasing me. Read my posts... don't be an accuser.

Your need for justice might include those falsely accused, so answers help the wise make good decisions.
What exactly do you think I'm accusing you of?
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Florida
9,128 posts, read 6,467,387 times
Reputation: 6682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
You said: "Yes... even the Gospel has bad news... I get that." That is a much different conclusion than I reached.



What exactly do you think I'm accusing you of?
You said...

Quote:
you insist that God will torment non-Christians for eternity
Wow ... I said there's bad news... and there is, and that = consequences. Kind-of-a stretch to campare bad news to "tormenting non christians for eternity'.

and your conclusion? = what?
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:31 PM
 
Location: USA
17,157 posts, read 9,826,068 times
Reputation: 2350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I've explained this issue at least two or three times in the past when it has come up on this forum.
And if you didn't want to go through the bother of answering it again, you can just say so. But to imply that anyone who doesn't agree with what you say is ipso facto rejecting what God says is disingenuous, Mike.

You say that you have reached a conclusion about how some people are exceptions to the rule of how salvation from eternal hell is obtained through deduction based on your belief that God is just and fair and cannot be unfair. Great. And yet, other people give you the same reasoning for not believing in the doctrine of eternal hell, and ALSO back that up with scripture, but somehow when they do that, they are rejecting God?

You want to post your view of truth, and your interpretation of scripture, fine. But why you seem so put out when people dare to challenge your view is beyond me.





Quote:
As I said, it is a matter of deduction that since God is just, and fair, and cannot be otherwise, then it would be unfair for God to leave in condemnation those who simply cannot come to an awareness of His existence, which is necessary before one can make a volitional response to the Gospel concerning Jesus Christ.

The only passage I can think of which has direct bearing on this matter concerns King David's attitude concerning the death of his child. David knew that his child would not return to him but that he would go to his child.
2 Samuel 12:21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22] He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live. 23] But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

Actually, seems to me David is simply saying that he's going to join his son in death. Nothing having to do with eternal torment or the lack thereof.


Quote:
And there are no rules about how not to end up in eternal torment. You need only take possession of the free gift of eternal life by simply personally relying on Christ. That is what it means to believe on Christ.
That's a "rule", Mike. It's a principle governing how [you believe] one obtains their escape from eternal hell.


Quote:
The Question asked!
Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
The Answer given!
Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Each of the jailers household personally responded to the gospel message given by Paul and Silas, and as a result they were all eternally saved (Acts 16:34).


Both the Old Testament and the New Testament state that eternal life is free.
Isaiah 55:1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
Compare with Revelation 22:17.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

You are making more deductions here based on your belief in eternal torment. You are assuming that "salvation" and "being saved" is from eternal hell and you are reading eternal torment into these texts when it's not there.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:38 PM
 
Location: USA
17,157 posts, read 9,826,068 times
Reputation: 2350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn View Post
You said...



Wow ... I said there's bad news... and there is, and that = consequences. Kind-of-a stretch to campare bad news to "tormenting non christians for eternity'.

and your conclusion? = what?

Dave, Mike's premise for this thread is that people must be Christian in order to avoid being separated from God for eternity in a lake of fire. I'm pretty sure that = "torment for non-Christians for eternity". Nothing you have said indicates that you disagree with him. If you do, I apologize for assuming that you don't.

So, please clarify. When you speak of "bad news" and "consequences" what are you speaking of?
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:52 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
28,856 posts, read 21,217,541 times
Reputation: 13246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
And if you didn't want to go through the bother of answering it again, you can just say so. But to imply that anyone who doesn't agree with what you say is ipso facto rejecting what God says is disingenuous, Mike.
You need to lose the combative and accusatory tone. I said merely that I have addressed before on this forum the issue concerning those who die without reaching the point of God consciousness. And from that you call me disingenuous.


Quote:
You say that you have reached a conclusion about how some people are exceptions to the rule of how salvation from eternal hell is obtained through deduction based on your belief that God is just and fair and cannot be unfair. Great. And yet, other people give you the same reasoning for not believing in the doctrine of eternal hell, and ALSO back that up with scripture, but somehow when they do that, they are rejecting God?
Proper interpretation of the Bible does not lead to the believe in Universalism.


Quote:
You want to post your view of truth, and your interpretation of scripture, fine. But why you seem so put out when people dare to challenge your view is beyond me.
I made it clear that I will answer honest questions. I am not going to answer these kinds of questions.


Quote:
Actually, seems to me David is simply saying that he's going to join his son in death. Nothing having to do with eternal torment or the lack thereof.
I did not say that what David said had to do with eternal torment. I said that the fact that David expected to see his child again supports the deduction that God is not going to leave under condemnation those who die before reaching the point of accountability.

Quote:
That's a "rule", Mike. It's a principle governing how [you believe] one obtains their escape from eternal hell.
By rule, I mean that there is nothing you can do to earn your salvation. It is a gift which is freely offered by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.


Quote:
You are making more deductions here based on your belief in eternal torment. You are assuming that "salvation" and "being saved" is from eternal hell and you are reading eternal torment into these texts when it's not there.
One does not need to make assumptions about what is clearly stated. Make the effort to put all the verses in the OP together. Compare Scripture with Scripture. The objective and unbiased mind can not help but acknowledge that the lake of fire is the ultimate and permanent destination of those who do not come to the Father through Christ.

I have answered enough of your questions. You are one of the people on this forum who have made it clear that you do not believe what the Bible says and nothing I say is going to change that. And I made it clear that I am not going to get into an argument.
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