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Old 12-07-2013, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Romans 2:14-16

I said it before and I'll say it again.
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
This could probably be categorized as a "For what it's worth" post, as June comes to this thread as a nonbeliever, rarely self-discloses (as she undoubtedly will in this post,) or, (for that matter) rarely ever even posts! However, this is a topic that fascinates June, so she felt compelled to chime in. She does so because, as you indicate above, you are willing to respond to legitimate questions, and that the intent of the thread is for those who will listen. June is willing, and has always been willing to listen, and as you indicate above in saying that it is not your intent to defend your motives or the existence of this thread, June agrees with you: June personally has no problem with those who believe in eternal condemnation or torment, as that is what you, and others believe. It is not June's place (in her opinion) to challenge or reject what another person believes. It is what they believe; they are entitled to their beliefs, and it would be disrespectful of June to say "You're wrong" as she has no right to say that to anyone, relative to what they believe.

So it is with genuine sincerity, and respect, that June is responding to this OP. As mentioned in the paragraph above, this is a topic that fascinates June, while admittedly she doesn't exactly understand how it exists in the minds of those who do believe in it. (But it is merely a lack of fully grasping how one can believe in eternal torment, not a judgmental stance, as indicated above.)

Perhaps one of the things that has always fascinated June about this topic is for the mere fact that it is a doctrine that in large part, is probably responsible for June's being a nonbeliever in the first place. June was raised in a Christian home and therefore was raised attending church each Sunday, along with the accompanying religious education that Christian parents provide their children. --And yet, it is this very issue which, (at the age of 6, perhaps 7) set in motion June's atheism. At that point in time, in the bible study classes that June was attending as part of her Christian upbringing, there came the chapter on eternal torment. June had a question: She had a relative with whom she was very close, but who happened to be of a religion other than Christianity. June was told that in fact this relative would not be in the same place (heaven) in the afterlife, as they did not accept Christ as Lord and Savior. This posed a problem for June, even at such a young age (or perhaps because she was so young) as it didn't make sense to her. More to the point, it seemed so incredibly contrary to everything else that up to that point she had learned about Jesus, what "salvation" meant, and the overall nature of Christianity in general. She simply couldn't understand how this loving God, who had created all things of beauty, and was the Source of love in the world, would condemn this relative whom she loved so dearly to hell. Her relative was a good person. In her "little girl June mind" this posed a big problem: it both depressed and confused her. June remembers, as a little girl, praying to God, and asking (and seriously pondering) why this was so. Granted, she had been provided with the answer to the question through her religious instruction, but it just didn't "jive" with everything else that she had thus far learnt. --Thus ensued the onset, the base, upon which became June's nonbelief. June wanted to be able to continue to believe in God, but was unable to reconcile this one, particular piece of doctrine with everything else that she had come to know and believe. There was a true source of both confusion and angst that existed for her around this topic.

Fast forward to adolescence: June embarks for college, and proceeds to become pathetically over-educated in obtaining not one, but two undergraduate degrees. June knew that she wanted to become a psychotherapist, so off she went and obtained a degree in Psychology, but she also wanted, very much, to obtain a degree in Theology, as well. So she did. And spent another four years in the halls of "academia" studying the bible, the Church, Christianity. --And yet she was still, after those four years, unable to reconcile herself to the notion of eternal damnation. Granted, she had the "intellectual explanations" and answers (for what truly little they may have been worth) but nonetheless, despite those explanations and answers, June simply could not reconcile what the NT, and what Jesus as the New Covenant in fulfilling the Old Covenant of the OT said with the concept of eternal damnation. She could understand, far better, from a more OT mindset, but nonetheless, it remained unreconciled for her.

--And then came the period of time in June's life when she embarked on what one could surmise could only be termed "full seeker mode." June found that she desperately wanted to be able to believe, wished to return to her childhood roots in her Christian upbringing, and spent the next four years of her life pursuing God. "Pursuing God" is perhaps the only way June can frame that period in her life: She read the bible daily, went to church each Sunday, became friends with two Christian ministers (who she genuinely, without question, believed that God had purposely placed in her life at just that time, as how coincidental could that be for any seeker?) June read and read and read, studied and studied and studied everything she could possibly get her hands on, although all the while fully cognizant of the fact that "faith" (and subsequent belief) were not to be found in the pages of books, with the exception of the bible. Which June read. Really read. Countless hours spent asking questions, with complete openness, in conversations with her two minister friends. --And sought, and sought, and sought...."Seek and ye shall find." And June prayed, petitioned God to reveal Himself to her.

June finally abandoned her "seeking" after four years of trying with more sincerity than she has words for in order to be able to believe, and resorted back to her "atheist self." --If nothing else, she figured that if, after four years, where she darn near knocked herself out trying to believe, and it hadn't happened (and nobody, in June's mind during this time, wanted to believe more than she did!) then it simply wasn't there to happen; God did not, in fact, exist. June absolutely believed in the notion of there being a benevolent and loving God, but at the same time, during what can only be described as a "dark night of the soul" phase, could not help but wonder (and not too happily!) just why it was that God was holding out on her. Because when June says that during that time she wanted to believe, June means she wanted to believe! Yet to no avail....

Thus ended June's seeking; thus re-emerged not only June's disbelief, but the subsequent reinforcement to her atheism. Which brings June to this portion of what you say, Mike:




Here is where June remains confused: Mike, in the first portion of what you posted that June bolded, you seem to very clearly be saying that even the likes of June, a nonbeliever, will not be destined to eternal damnation. If June is understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that even atheist June " is automatically saved because of Christ's work on the cross." --But this doesn't make sense to June! Atheists most certainly are NOT going to end up in heaven! (Especially given the fact that we don't believe there is one to begin with....) But if you could say more on this portion of your post, June would welcome that.

In terms of the second sentence that June bolded, based solely on her personal experience alone, she has to disagree. --Because at that point in time when June truly, genuinely wanted to believe, tried her hardest to believe, obtained whatever (meager) degree of faith she was able to obtain, God didn't give to June the "specific revelation of Jesus Christ through the gospel message" such that June could have had the faith required in Christ in order to be eternally saved. In other words (or in summation) June is saying that this atheist still cannot reconcile the same questions that arose at the age of 6 for her regarding eternal damnation. Is June destined to eternal damnation (based on your first sentence) or not, (despite your second?)

At the end of those four years of truly, genuinely seeking God, belief in Christ, and the desire to know Him and that which enabled the faith provided by grace alone, June ultimately wrote herself off as being "constitutionally incapable" of believing in God. Lord knows she tried. And the questions she has posed here are equally as genuine and sincere, as this topic has been a life-long source of both fascination, as well as confusion in it's overall context within the NT, and Christianity as a whole.




Dave, with all sincerity, June needs to point out that your statement above is a generalization. She thinks this post proves that.

Lastly, (and then June will shut up, as no doubt anyone who has read this far is either suffering from eye strain or the onset of a migraine due to this post's length!) Mike: If you could elaborate on what you have written below, June would welcome hearing your response in light of what she has said/disclosed in this post, as again you seem to imply that this atheist is not condemned to eternal damnation:



P.S. Regarding the below, and it's true eloquence, "she tried."




June's thanks to all who have taken the time to read this far too lengthy post! Apologies for the length! ("Thank God she never posts!" they all say to themselves!)


Take gentle care, and have a good Sunday all!
June, based on what your stated. You should embrace Universalism then. For consider that the problem with Eternal Torment was that you could not see how a loved one could be subjected to the same. What about as Atheist that believes that at the end of this life, your finished. That is still a tragedy. So why would you not embrace Universalism for a loved on that has died? Is it not logical to believe that if there is a God and that He is ALL POWERFUL, that He would have the power to remove the evil from anyone?

I hope you consider universal salvation to give you a hope in those same loved ones that has departed from you.
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:08 AM
 
7,901 posts, read 11,463,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn View Post
Romans 2:14-16

I said it before and I'll say it again.
A good response. June understands.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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The penalty of sin is death, the ultimate result being the lake of fire.

Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks.
And they began to think up foolish ideologies of what God was like.

As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

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Old 12-07-2013, 04:19 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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[quote=june 7th;32521471]This could probably be categorized as a "For what it's worth" post, as June comes to this thread as a nonbeliever, rarely self-discloses (as she undoubtedly will in this post,) or, (for that matter) rarely ever even posts! However, this is a topic that fascinates June, so she felt compelled to chime in. She does so because, as you indicate above, you are willing to respond to legitimate questions, and that the intent of the thread is for those who will listen. June is willing, and has always been willing to listen, and as you indicate above in saying that it is not your intent to defend your motives or the existence of this thread, June agrees with you: June personally has no problem with those who believe in eternal condemnation or torment, as that is what you, and others believe. It is not June's place (in her opinion) to challenge or reject what another person believes. It is what they believe; they are entitled to their beliefs, and it would be disrespectful of June to say "You're wrong" as she has no right to say that to anyone, relative to what they believe.

So it is with genuine sincerity, and respect, that June is responding to this OP. As mentioned in the paragraph above, this is a topic that fascinates June, while admittedly she doesn't exactly understand how it exists in the minds of those who do believe in it. (But it is merely a lack of fully grasping how one can believe in eternal torment, not a judgmental stance, as indicated above.)

Perhaps one of the things that has always fascinated June about this topic is for the mere fact that it is a doctrine that in large part, is probably responsible for June's being a nonbeliever in the first place. June was raised in a Christian home and therefore was raised attending church each Sunday, along with the accompanying religious education that Christian parents provide their children. --And yet, it is this very issue which, (at the age of 6, perhaps 7) set in motion June's atheism. At that point in time, in the bible study classes that June was attending as part of her Christian upbringing, there came the chapter on eternal torment. June had a question: She had a relative with whom she was very close, but who happened to be of a religion other than Christianity. June was told that in fact this relative would not be in the same place (heaven) in the afterlife, as they did not accept Christ as Lord and Savior. This posed a problem for June, even at such a young age (or perhaps because she was so young) as it didn't make sense to her. More to the point, it seemed so incredibly contrary to everything else that up to that point she had learned about Jesus, what "salvation" meant, and the overall nature of Christianity in general. She simply couldn't understand how this loving God, who had created all things of beauty, and was the Source of love in the world, would condemn this relative whom she loved so dearly to hell. Her relative was a good person. In her "little girl June mind" this posed a big problem: it both depressed and confused her. June remembers, as a little girl, praying to God, and asking (and seriously pondering) why this was so. Granted, she had been provided with the answer to the question through her religious instruction, but it just didn't "jive" with everything else that she had thus far learnt. --Thus ensued the onset, the base, upon which became June's nonbelief. June wanted to be able to continue to believe in God, but was unable to reconcile this one, particular piece of doctrine with everything else that she had come to know and believe. There was a true source of both confusion and angst that existed for her around this topic.

Fast forward to adolescence: June embarks for college, and proceeds to become pathetically over-educated in obtaining not one, but two undergraduate degrees. June knew that she wanted to become a psychotherapist, so off she went and obtained a degree in Psychology, but she also wanted, very much, to obtain a degree in Theology, as well. So she did. And spent another four years in the halls of "academia" studying the bible, the Church, Christianity. --And yet she was still, after those four years, unable to reconcile herself to the notion of eternal damnation. Granted, she had the "intellectual explanations" and answers (for what truly little they may have been worth) but nonetheless, despite those explanations and answers, June simply could not reconcile what the NT, and what Jesus as the New Covenant in fulfilling the Old Covenant of the OT said with the concept of eternal damnation. She could understand, far better, from a more OT mindset, but nonetheless, it remained unreconciled for her.

--And then came the period of time in June's life when she embarked on what one could surmise could only be termed "full seeker mode." June found that she desperately wanted to be able to believe, wished to return to her childhood roots in her Christian upbringing, and spent the next four years of her life pursuing God. "Pursuing God" is perhaps the only way June can frame that period in her life: She read the bible daily, went to church each Sunday, became friends with two Christian ministers (who she genuinely, without question, believed that God had purposely placed in her life at just that time, as how coincidental could that be for any seeker?) June read and read and read, studied and studied and studied everything she could possibly get her hands on, although all the while fully cognizant of the fact that "faith" (and subsequent belief) were not to be found in the pages of books, with the exception of the bible. Which June read. Really read. Countless hours spent asking questions, with complete openness, in conversations with her two minister friends. --And sought, and sought, and sought...."Seek and ye shall find." And June prayed, petitioned God to reveal Himself to her.

June finally abandoned her "seeking" after four years of trying with more sincerity than she has words for in order to be able to believe, and resorted back to her "atheist self." --If nothing else, she figured that if, after four years, where she darn near knocked herself out trying to believe, and it hadn't happened (and nobody, in June's mind during this time, wanted to believe more than she did!) then it simply wasn't there to happen; God did not, in fact, exist. June absolutely believed in the notion of there being a benevolent and loving God, but at the same time, during what can only be described as a "dark night of the soul" phase, could not help but wonder (and not too happily!) just why it was that God was holding out on her. Because when June says that during that time she wanted to believe, June means she wanted to believe! Yet to no avail....

Thus ended June's seeking; thus re-emerged not only June's disbelief, but the subsequent reinforcement to her atheism. Which brings June to this portion of what you say, Mike:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

When in the course of human development a person becomes aware as a result of that natural revelation that God exists, he becomes responsible to God for what he does with that awareness.

It can be deduced based on the fact that God is perfectly just and fair, and cannot be unjust or unfair to any person, that if any person dies without being able to come to that awareness, whether he be a young child, or a person regardless of age who because of lack of mental capacity cannot come to such an awareness, he is automatically saved because of Christ's work on the cross. Now, when through general or natural revelation, a person has become aware that God exists he will either desire to find out something about God, or he will be indifferent regarding God. If a person desires to know God, then God will make sure that that person receives the specific revelation of Jesus Christ through the gospel message, at which point that person must respond to the gospel through faith in Christ if he is to be eternally saved.

Because God is omniscience and has always known all the facts, He is able to steer and direct the events of human history so that at any given point of time in history the gospel can get to wherever positive volition exists.
Quote:
Here is where June remains confused: Mike, in the first portion of what you posted that June bolded, you seem to very clearly be saying that even the likes of June, a nonbeliever, will not be destined to eternal damnation. If June is understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that even atheist June " is automatically saved because of Christ's work on the cross." --But this doesn't make sense to June! Atheists most certainly are NOT going to end up in heaven! (Especially given the fact that we don't believe there is one to begin with....) But if you could say more on this portion of your post, June would welcome that.
Hi June. I'm glad you posted and asked for more clarification.

Actually, you didn't understand what I was saying. I was referring to anyone who dies before reaching a point of accountability (what some people call 'the age of accountability even though there is no specific age). And it is this which you ask me to elaborate on later in this post, which I will do.

June, if a person dies without ever having believed on Christ then he remains under condemnation unless he dies before reaching a point of accountability. However, once a person has believed on Christ, he is eternally saved even if he later becomes an atheist. It is impossible to lose your salvation.

So June, if you did once believe that Jesus died for your sins and that He rose again, and therefore trusted Him for your salvation then you are eternally saved even though you are now an atheist.

Quote:
In terms of the second sentence that June bolded, based solely on her personal experience alone, she has to disagree. --Because at that point in time when June truly, genuinely wanted to believe, tried her hardest to believe, obtained whatever (meager) degree of faith she was able to obtain, God didn't give to June the "specific revelation of Jesus Christ through the gospel message" such that June could have had the faith required in Christ in order to be eternally saved.
The word 'of' was perhaps a poor choice on my part. I simply meant that once a person has become aware though natural or general revelation that God exists, if he then has a desire to know God, then he will have the opportunity to hear the gospel message which gives us specific revelation, or information concerning Christ, or about Christ. The use of the word 'of' changes the meaning of what I intended to say.

The gospel is the good news concerning Jesus' saving work on our behalf. And anyone who has positive volition at the point of what I call 'God consciousness' through the natural revelation of God's creation will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel. However, positive volition at the point of God consciousness does not necessarily mean that a person will believe the gospel message.


Quote:
In other words (or in summation) June is saying that this atheist still cannot reconcile the same questions that arose at the age of 6 for her regarding eternal damnation. Is June destined to eternal damnation (based on your first sentence) or not, (despite your second?)
Well, as I said above, you misunderstood what I meant in those sentences. But I will say again that if you did once believe that Jesus died for your sins and that He rose again, and therefore trusted Him for your salvation then you are eternally saved even though you are now an atheist.


You said at the top of the post that you don't exactly understand how it exists in the minds of those who do believe in it and that you don't fully grasp how one can believe in eternal torment.

Since I believe that the Bible is God's objective revelation to man (the reasons why I believe that is probably off topic), it follows then that I believe what it says about the subject of eternal condemnation which involves being separated from God forever in a place which is described as a 'lake of fire', but is also called 'the black darkness' (Jude 1:3).

Since we all will exist forever the issue is where we will spend the eternal future. The Bible says that we will either live forever in His presence, having an eternal relationship with Him, or we will be forever separated from Him, outside of any relationship with Him. The determining factor is whether we avail ourselves of God's provision of salvation which was made possible by the work of Christ on the Cross.

Many people don't understand how a loving God could condemn anyone to ''hell.'' It is important to understand that the Bible says that we are all born under condemnation. We were all condemned because of Adam's original sin (Rom. 5:12-19). And since I believe the Bible I therefore believe what it says about original sin.

The Bible says that God is love, but it also says that God is holy. That He is righteous and just. He cannot therefore ignore His holiness which is just as much a part of His nature as is His love.

Even among men, while a man may have love for his son, if that man also has a sense of justice he will understand that if his son commits a crime then he must be punished.

How much more so then must God who is infinitely holy punish sin which is a violation of His perfect standard. God's love could not and did not prevent Him from condemning Adam when he sinned, and God's love could not restore the relationship between God and Adam which sin had severed. But God's love was the motivation for providing a way of salvation which was consistent with His perfect righteousness and justice.

God's love, while not being able save in and of itself, was the motivation for our salvation. But it was God's justice which was the actual means or mechanics by which God could provide salvation.

It was God's justice that condemned us, and it is God's justice which made salvation possible. It is also God's justice which must leave under condemnation any person who does not avail himself of God's means of salvation. Jesus Christ did all the work to make salvation available to us, but only by personally believing on Christ is salvation a reality for us.

God does not desire that anyone perish, and He sent His Son into the world to die for the sins of the world so that anyone who simply believes on Him has eternal life. But God is bound by His own holiness to leave in condemnation anyone who does not believe on Christ. Again however, this refers to those who reach a accountability at the point of God consciousness through God's natural revelation of Himself in His creation.



Quote:
At the end of those four years of truly, genuinely seeking God, belief in Christ, and the desire to know Him and that which enabled the faith provided by grace alone, June ultimately wrote herself off as being "constitutionally incapable" of believing in God. Lord knows she tried. And the questions she has posed here are equally as genuine and sincere, as this topic has been a life-long source of both fascination, as well as confusion in it's overall context within the NT, and Christianity as a whole.


Mike: If you could elaborate on what you have written below, June would welcome hearing your response in light of what she has said/disclosed in this post, as again you seem to imply that this atheist is not condemned to eternal damnation:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

As I said, it is a matter of deduction that since God is just, and fair, and cannot be otherwise, then it would be unfair for God to leave in condemnation those who simply cannot come to an awareness of His existence, which is necessary before one can make a volitional response to the Gospel concerning Jesus Christ.
I'll try to expand on that. There is a point at which man becomes accountable to God (there is no specific age of accountability) for his attitude concerning, or toward God. The moment at which man becomes accountable is when he first becomes aware that God must exist. And for some that might be as young as three or four years old (three might be too early as I'm not sure what a baby that age can comprehend. For others it may be much later. Some people, due to lack of mental capacity (severe mental retardation), might never be able to come to an awareness of, or understanding that God must exist, or comprehend the concept of a 'god' or 'deity'. If a person dies before, or never having been able to reach 'God consciousness' (and I hope that doesn't sound like a new age concept, because that is not at all what I mean) then based on the fact that God is just and fair, that person is automatically saved because Christ died for him.

God requires a volitional response from man. But a volitional response cannot be made concerning God, and specifically concerning Jesus Christ if a person cannot even conceive of the existence of God. And God is not unjust that He would leave in condemnation anyone who simply cannot even conceive of His existence. As I related in post #34 King David expected that he would go to his son (a young child, a baby) who had died. David expected to see him again when he himself died. The child died before reaching a point of God consciousness and so was automatically saved. And David expected to see him again.

But once having become aware of, or having become able to conceive of the existence of God then a person is accountable to God. If, being aware that God must exist (and natural or general revelation through God's creation is not salvific) he has no interest in wanting to know God, he may die never having heard the gospel which provides salvific information concerning Jesus Christ. But once, through natural revelation, he is able to understand that God must exist, if a person has a desire to know God he will have the opportunity to hear the gospel which provides salvific information.

Quote:
P.S. Regarding the below, and it's true eloquence, "she tried."




June's thanks to all who have taken the time to read this far too lengthy post! Apologies for the length! ("Thank God she never posts!" they all say to themselves!)


Take gentle care, and have a good weekend all!
Well, I hope that what I said above makes since to you June. And as I said above, if there was ever a point in your early life before your atheism set in when you did believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose again, and you placed your faith in Him, even if that belief didn't last long, then you are still eternally saved.

Have a good weekend June. And if anything I said above is unclear, let me know and I will try to clarify if I can.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,960 posts, read 13,223,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Here is where June remains confused: Mike, in the first portion of what you posted that June bolded, you seem to very clearly be saying that even the likes of June, a nonbeliever, will not be destined to eternal damnation. If June is understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that even atheist June " is automatically saved because of Christ's work on the cross." --But this doesn't make sense to June! Atheists most certainly are NOT going to end up in heaven! (Especially given the fact that we don't believe there is one to begin with....) But if you could say more on this portion of your post, June would welcome that.

In terms of the second sentence that June bolded, based solely on her personal experience alone, she has to disagree. --Because at that point in time when June truly, genuinely wanted to believe, tried her hardest to believe, obtained whatever (meager) degree of faith she was able to obtain, God didn't give to June the "specific revelation of Jesus Christ through the gospel message" such that June could have had the faith required in Christ in order to be eternally saved. In other words (or in summation) June is saying that this atheist still cannot reconcile the same questions that arose at the age of 6 for her regarding eternal damnation. Is June destined to eternal damnation (based on your first sentence) or not, (despite your second?)

At the end of those four years of truly, genuinely seeking God, belief in Christ, and the desire to know Him and that which enabled the faith provided by grace alone, June ultimately wrote herself off as being "constitutionally incapable" of believing in God. Lord knows she tried. And the questions she has posed here are equally as genuine and sincere, as this topic has been a life-long source of both fascination, as well as confusion in it's overall context within the NT, and Christianity as a whole.
Excellent question and observation.
But you may not get a correct answer.

"Hell is the Lake of Fire, created by Men."



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Old 12-07-2013, 04:50 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 11,253,384 times
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June,
For you to be told
"if a person dies without ever having believed on Christ then he remains under condemnation unless he dies before reaching a point of accountability. However, once a person has believed on Christ, he is eternally saved even if he later becomes an atheist. It is impossible to lose your salvation."
such a message is a preaching of another gospel that not only the one who trusts in such a message ( the person who doesn't remain faithful to the end of life) will be sent to hell for their unbelief ... but also the person who preaches such alternative gospel messages will also be in danger of being sent to hell.

Unlike the quote above which is the attempt to give exceptions, Jesus nor scriptures do not.
John 15:6
If you do not remain in me,
you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Revelation 16:15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”


Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God,

Hebrews 3:14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 6:11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.



God says that people who have come know the truth only then to reject it are going to worse off than those who never did.
"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they
were at the beginning.

It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them"
2 Peter 2:20-22

Last edited by twin.spin; 12-07-2013 at 05:08 PM..
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:55 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
28,875 posts, read 21,228,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
June,
For you to be told
"if a person dies without ever having believed on Christ then he remains under condemnation unless he dies before reaching a point of accountability. However, once a person has believed on Christ, he is eternally saved even if he later becomes an atheist. It is impossible to lose your salvation."
such a message is a preaching of another gospel that not only the one who trusts in such a message ( the person who doesn't remain faithful to the end of life) will be sent to hell for their unbelief ... but also the person who preaches such alternative gospel messages will also be in danger of being sent to hell.

Unlike the quote above which gives exceptions, Jesus does not.
John 15:6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

the false teacherpreaches:
"once a person has believed on Christ, he is eternally saved even if he later becomes an atheist. It is impossible to lose your salvation."
Oh . . . go eat a cookie!!!

John 15:6 doesn't mean what you think it means. And the eternal security of the believer is not the topic of this thread so I won't bother explaining the verse to you. You never listen anyway.

Last edited by Michael Way; 12-07-2013 at 05:03 PM..
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Old 12-07-2013, 05:14 PM
 
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June,

There is no Hell of the kind these fundamentalist and literalist Christians believe in, period. God does not punish. There are always consequences in life (and in the next) but they have nothing to do with punishment . . . that is a childish notion we should have long ago outgrown. Belief in God does NOT require belief in the ideas that men have promoted ABOUT God. It is an inner response that is evidenced in our "fruits" . . . NOT our intellects and proclamations. Believers in God are evidenced by their respect for life and each other . . . a form of agape love. The Romans 2 citation is apropos. Your "wanting" is more than enough proof of your intrinsic belief in God and the value of human life (why else would you want such a thing?). Your intellect is rightly repelled by the eternal torment nonsense. It IS nonsense created by primitive and ignorant men and promulgated by religions as a sign of faith in God and as a basis for control through fear.
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Old 12-07-2013, 05:14 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Oh . . . go eat a cookie!!!

John 15:6 doesn't mean what you think it means. And the eternal security of the believer is not the topic of this thread so I won't bother explaining the verse to you. You never listen anyway.
I listen to Jesus ... not gospel alternatives which OSAS is.
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

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