U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 12-07-2013, 05:25 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
28,851 posts, read 21,202,500 times
Reputation: 13239

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I listen to Jesus ... not gospel alternatives which OSAS is.
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
Except that Paul whom you are quoting taught salvation by grace through faith. Not salvation by works which would include persevering or enduring to the end in order to earn salvation.

At any rate, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on whether the believer can lose his salvation. Nor do I want to waste my time arguing with you.

We're done here.
Rate this post positively

 
Old 12-07-2013, 05:35 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 11,248,924 times
Reputation: 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Oh . . . go eat a cookie!!!
John 15:6 doesn't mean what you think it means. And the eternal security of the believer is not the topic of this thread so I won't bother explaining the verse to you. You never listen anyway.
Really ....?
Yet you sure made reference to it........
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
.... June, if a person dies without ever having believed on Christ then he remains under condemnation unless he dies before reaching a point of accountability. However, once a person has believed on Christ, he is eternally saved even if he later becomes an atheist. It is impossible to lose your salvation.
and then here comes it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Well, as I said above, you misunderstood what I meant in those sentences. But I will say again that if you did once believe that Jesus died for your sins and that He rose again, and therefore trusted Him for your salvation then you are eternally saved even though you are now an atheist.
Rate this post positively
 
Old 12-07-2013, 05:45 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 11,248,924 times
Reputation: 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Except that Paul whom you are quoting taught salvation by grace through faith. Not salvation by works which would include persevering or enduring to the end in order to earn salvation.

At any rate, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on whether the believer can lose his salvation. Nor do I want to waste my time arguing with you.

We're done here.
As God said through Peter about Paul's writings and other scriptures:
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
to say that when Jesus said:
John 15:6
If you do not remain in me,
you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Revelation 16:15
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
is salvation by works .... and to say that these verses:
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God,

Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 6:11
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
is salvation by works ...... shows no better example of what God was speaking about in 2 Peter 3:16
Rate this post positively
 
Old 12-07-2013, 05:59 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 11,248,924 times
Reputation: 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
As God said through Peter about Paul's writings and other scriptures:
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
to say that when Jesus said:
John 15:6
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Revelation 16:15
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
is salvation by works .... and to say that these verses:
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God,

Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 6:11
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
is salvation by works ...... shows no better example of what God was speaking about in 2 Peter 3:16
and as far as keeping with the topic of the OP .... the penalty of sin is death, the ultimate result being the lake of fire which is what will occur to those who do renounce their faith.

And that is the comparing scripture to scripture !
Rate this post positively
 
Old 12-07-2013, 06:19 PM
 
7,901 posts, read 11,460,303 times
Reputation: 3780
[quote=Mike555;32525430]
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
This could probably be categorized as a "For what it's worth" post, as June comes to this thread as a nonbeliever, rarely self-discloses (as she undoubtedly will in this post,) or, (for that matter) rarely ever even posts! However, this is a topic that fascinates June, so she felt compelled to chime in. She does so because, as you indicate above, you are willing to respond to legitimate questions, and that the intent of the thread is for those who will listen. June is willing, and has always been willing to listen, and as you indicate above in saying that it is not your intent to defend your motives or the existence of this thread, June agrees with you: June personally has no problem with those who believe in eternal condemnation or torment, as that is what you, and others believe. It is not June's place (in her opinion) to challenge or reject what another person believes. It is what they believe; they are entitled to their beliefs, and it would be disrespectful of June to say "You're wrong" as she has no right to say that to anyone, relative to what they believe.

So it is with genuine sincerity, and respect, that June is responding to this OP. As mentioned in the paragraph above, this is a topic that fascinates June, while admittedly she doesn't exactly understand how it exists in the minds of those who do believe in it. (But it is merely a lack of fully grasping how one can believe in eternal torment, not a judgmental stance, as indicated above.)

Perhaps one of the things that has always fascinated June about this topic is for the mere fact that it is a doctrine that in large part, is probably responsible for June's being a nonbeliever in the first place. June was raised in a Christian home and therefore was raised attending church each Sunday, along with the accompanying religious education that Christian parents provide their children. --And yet, it is this very issue which, (at the age of 6, perhaps 7) set in motion June's atheism. At that point in time, in the bible study classes that June was attending as part of her Christian upbringing, there came the chapter on eternal torment. June had a question: She had a relative with whom she was very close, but who happened to be of a religion other than Christianity. June was told that in fact this relative would not be in the same place (heaven) in the afterlife, as they did not accept Christ as Lord and Savior. This posed a problem for June, even at such a young age (or perhaps because she was so young) as it didn't make sense to her. More to the point, it seemed so incredibly contrary to everything else that up to that point she had learned about Jesus, what "salvation" meant, and the overall nature of Christianity in general. She simply couldn't understand how this loving God, who had created all things of beauty, and was the Source of love in the world, would condemn this relative whom she loved so dearly to hell. Her relative was a good person. In her "little girl June mind" this posed a big problem: it both depressed and confused her. June remembers, as a little girl, praying to God, and asking (and seriously pondering) why this was so. Granted, she had been provided with the answer to the question through her religious instruction, but it just didn't "jive" with everything else that she had thus far learnt. --Thus ensued the onset, the base, upon which became June's nonbelief. June wanted to be able to continue to believe in God, but was unable to reconcile this one, particular piece of doctrine with everything else that she had come to know and believe. There was a true source of both confusion and angst that existed for her around this topic.

Fast forward to adolescence: June embarks for college, and proceeds to become pathetically over-educated in obtaining not one, but two undergraduate degrees. June knew that she wanted to become a psychotherapist, so off she went and obtained a degree in Psychology, but she also wanted, very much, to obtain a degree in Theology, as well. So she did. And spent another four years in the halls of "academia" studying the bible, the Church, Christianity. --And yet she was still, after those four years, unable to reconcile herself to the notion of eternal damnation. Granted, she had the "intellectual explanations" and answers (for what truly little they may have been worth) but nonetheless, despite those explanations and answers, June simply could not reconcile what the NT, and what Jesus as the New Covenant in fulfilling the Old Covenant of the OT said with the concept of eternal damnation. She could understand, far better, from a more OT mindset, but nonetheless, it remained unreconciled for her.

--And then came the period of time in June's life when she embarked on what one could surmise could only be termed "full seeker mode." June found that she desperately wanted to be able to believe, wished to return to her childhood roots in her Christian upbringing, and spent the next four years of her life pursuing God. "Pursuing God" is perhaps the only way June can frame that period in her life: She read the bible daily, went to church each Sunday, became friends with two Christian ministers (who she genuinely, without question, believed that God had purposely placed in her life at just that time, as how coincidental could that be for any seeker?) June read and read and read, studied and studied and studied everything she could possibly get her hands on, although all the while fully cognizant of the fact that "faith" (and subsequent belief) were not to be found in the pages of books, with the exception of the bible. Which June read. Really read. Countless hours spent asking questions, with complete openness, in conversations with her two minister friends. --And sought, and sought, and sought...."Seek and ye shall find." And June prayed, petitioned God to reveal Himself to her.

June finally abandoned her "seeking" after four years of trying with more sincerity than she has words for in order to be able to believe, and resorted back to her "atheist self." --If nothing else, she figured that if, after four years, where she darn near knocked herself out trying to believe, and it hadn't happened (and nobody, in June's mind during this time, wanted to believe more than she did!) then it simply wasn't there to happen; God did not, in fact, exist. June absolutely believed in the notion of there being a benevolent and loving God, but at the same time, during what can only be described as a "dark night of the soul" phase, could not help but wonder (and not too happily!) just why it was that God was holding out on her. Because when June says that during that time she wanted to believe, June means she wanted to believe! Yet to no avail....

Thus ended June's seeking; thus re-emerged not only June's disbelief, but the subsequent reinforcement to her atheism. Which brings June to this portion of what you say, Mike:



Hi June. I'm glad you posted and asked for more clarification.

Actually, you didn't understand what I was saying. I was referring to anyone who dies before reaching a point of accountability (what some people call 'the age of accountability even though there is no specific age). And it is this which you ask me to elaborate on later in this post, which I will do.

June, if a person dies without ever having believed on Christ then he remains under condemnation unless he dies before reaching a point of accountability. However, once a person has believed on Christ, he is eternally saved even if he later becomes an atheist. It is impossible to lose your salvation.

So June, if you did once believe that Jesus died for your sins and that He rose again, and therefore trusted Him for your salvation then you are eternally saved even though you are now an atheist.


The word 'of' was perhaps a poor choice on my part. I simply meant that once a person has become aware though natural or general revelation that God exists, if he then has a desire to know God, then he will have the opportunity to hear the gospel message which gives us specific revelation, or information concerning Christ, or about Christ. The use of the word 'of' changes the meaning of what I intended to say.

The gospel is the good news concerning Jesus' saving work on our behalf. And anyone who has positive volition at the point of what I call 'God consciousness' through the natural revelation of God's creation will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel. However, positive volition at the point of God consciousness does not necessarily mean that a person will believe the gospel message.




Well, as I said above, you misunderstood what I meant in those sentences. But I will say again that if you did once believe that Jesus died for your sins and that He rose again, and therefore trusted Him for your salvation then you are eternally saved even though you are now an atheist.


You said at the top of the post that you don't exactly understand how it exists in the minds of those who do believe in it and that you don't fully grasp how one can believe in eternal torment.

Since I believe that the Bible is God's objective revelation to man (the reasons why I believe that is probably off topic), it follows then that I believe what it says about the subject of eternal condemnation which involves being separated from God forever in a place which is described as a 'lake of fire', but is also called 'the black darkness' (Jude 1:3).

Since we all will exist forever the issue is where we will spend the eternal future. The Bible says that we will either live forever in His presence, having an eternal relationship with Him, or we will be forever separated from Him, outside of any relationship with Him. The determining factor is whether we avail ourselves of God's provision of salvation which was made possible by the work of Christ on the Cross.

Many people don't understand how a loving God could condemn anyone to ''hell.'' It is important to understand that the Bible says that we are all born under condemnation. We were all condemned because of Adam's original sin (Rom. 5:12-19). And since I believe the Bible I therefore believe what it says about original sin.

The Bible says that God is love, but it also says that God is holy. That He is righteous and just. He cannot therefore ignore His holiness which is just as much a part of His nature as is His love.

Even among men, while a man may have love for his son, if that man also has a sense of justice he will understand that if his son commits a crime then he must be punished.

How much more so then must God who is infinitely holy punish sin which is a violation of His perfect standard. God's love could not and did not prevent Him from condemning Adam when he sinned, and God's love could not restore the relationship between God and Adam which sin had severed. But God's love was the motivation for providing a way of salvation which was consistent with His perfect righteousness and justice.

God's love, while not being able save in and of itself, was the motivation for our salvation. But it was God's justice which was the actual means or mechanics by which God could provide salvation.

It was God's justice that condemned us, and it is God's justice which made salvation possible. It is also God's justice which must leave under condemnation any person who does not avail himself of God's means of salvation. Jesus Christ did all the work to make salvation available to us, but only by personally believing on Christ is salvation a reality for us.

God does not desire that anyone perish, and He sent His Son into the world to die for the sins of the world so that anyone who simply believes on Him has eternal life. But God is bound by His own holiness to leave in condemnation anyone who does not believe on Christ. Again however, this refers to those who reach a accountability at the point of God consciousness through God's natural revelation of Himself in His creation.







I'll try to expand on that. There is a point at which man becomes accountable to God (there is no specific age of accountability) for his attitude concerning, or toward God. The moment at which man becomes accountable is when he first becomes aware that God must exist. And for some that might be as young as three or four years old (three might be too early as I'm not sure what a baby that age can comprehend. For others it may be much later. Some people, due to lack of mental capacity (severe mental retardation), might never be able to come to an awareness of, or understanding that God must exist, or comprehend the concept of a 'god' or 'deity'. If a person dies before, or never having been able to reach 'God consciousness' (and I hope that doesn't sound like a new age concept, because that is not at all what I mean) then based on the fact that God is just and fair, that person is automatically saved because Christ died for him.

God requires a volitional response from man. But a volitional response cannot be made concerning God, and specifically concerning Jesus Christ if a person cannot even conceive of the existence of God. And God is not unjust that He would leave in condemnation anyone who simply cannot even conceive of His existence. As I related in post #34 King David expected that he would go to his son (a young child, a baby) who had died. David expected to see him again when he himself died. The child died before reaching a point of God consciousness and so was automatically saved. And David expected to see him again.

But once having become aware of, or having become able to conceive of the existence of God then a person is accountable to God. If, being aware that God must exist (and natural or general revelation through God's creation is not salvific) he has no interest in wanting to know God, he may die never having heard the gospel which provides salvific information concerning Jesus Christ. But once, through natural revelation, he is able to understand that God must exist, if a person has a desire to know God he will have the opportunity to hear the gospel which provides salvific information.



Well, I hope that what I said above makes since to you June. And as I said above, if there was ever a point in your early life before your atheism set in when you did believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose again, and you placed your faith in Him, even if that belief didn't last long, then you are still eternally saved.

Have a good weekend June. And if anything I said above is unclear, let me know and I will try to clarify if I can.
WOW! Just....wow!

June thinks a portion of her brain just exploded in reading your response, so you'll have to give her some time to "re-group" in order to respond! Great post! June sincerely, sincerely thanks you for responding to her's. (Wasn't sure it would be, well, "welcomed?") --But June is really glad that you took the time to respond as thoroughly as you did, and will definitely respond to much (a lot!) of what you said a bit later on tonight, after her brain has returned to fully-functioning mode (assuming it ever was to begin with, that is!) as she has a lot to respond with and to!

So let June re-read all that you've written, go back and re-read your OP, think a bit more, and will then ask you to clarify a few points that she'd look forward to your addressing....But in the meantime, thank you Mike! June truly appreciates your taking the time to respond!

(And your post truly did "blow June's mind!") --In a positive sense!
Rate this post positively
 
Old 12-07-2013, 06:21 PM
 
7,901 posts, read 11,460,303 times
Reputation: 3780
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
June, based on what your stated. You should embrace Universalism then. For consider that the problem with Eternal Torment was that you could not see how a loved one could be subjected to the same. What about as Atheist that believes that at the end of this life, your finished. That is still a tragedy. So why would you not embrace Universalism for a loved on that has died? Is it not logical to believe that if there is a God and that He is ALL POWERFUL, that He would have the power to remove the evil from anyone?

I hope you consider universal salvation to give you a hope in those same loved ones that has departed from you.
See above post...Will respond to yours as well, trettep, as soon as June is able to think linearly again!
Rate this post positively
 
Old 12-07-2013, 06:27 PM
 
7,901 posts, read 11,460,303 times
Reputation: 3780
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
June,
For you to be told
"if a person dies without ever having believed on Christ then he remains under condemnation unless he dies before reaching a point of accountability. However, once a person has believed on Christ, he is eternally saved even if he later becomes an atheist. It is impossible to lose your salvation."
such a message is a preaching of another gospel that not only the one who trusts in such a message ( the person who doesn't remain faithful to the end of life) will be sent to hell for their unbelief ... but also the person who preaches such alternative gospel messages will also be in danger of being sent to hell.

Unlike the quote above which is the attempt to give exceptions, Jesus nor scriptures do not.
John 15:6
If you do not remain in me,
you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Revelation 16:15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”


Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God,

Hebrews 3:14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 6:11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.



God says that people who have come know the truth only then to reject it are going to worse off than those who never did.
"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they
were at the beginning.

It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them"
2 Peter 2:20-22
Thanks to you as well, Twin! --But now June is really, really confused, so will also have to respond back a bit later....
Rate this post positively
 
Old 12-07-2013, 06:55 PM
 
7,901 posts, read 11,460,303 times
Reputation: 3780
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
June,

There is no Hell of the kind these fundamentalist and literalist Christians believe in, period. God does not punish. There are always consequences in life (and in the next) but they have nothing to do with punishment . . . that is a childish notion we should have long ago outgrown. Belief in God does NOT require belief in the ideas that men have promoted ABOUT God. It is an inner response that is evidenced in our "fruits" . . . NOT our intellects and proclamations. Believers in God are evidenced by their respect for life and each other . . . a form of agape love. The Romans 2 citation is apropos. Your "wanting" is more than enough proof of your intrinsic belief in God and the value of human life (why else would you want such a thing?). Your intellect is rightly repelled by the eternal torment nonsense. It IS nonsense created by primitive and ignorant men and promulgated by religions as a sign of faith in God and as a basis for control through fear.
June's with you on the "agape love" concept. That is what June had always believed, in terms of what she was taught, and what made absolute sense to her at one time about Christianity.

In terms of your comment: "Your 'wanting' is more than enough proof of your intrinsic belief in God...why else would you want such a thing?" is something June has to give some considerable thought to. (June's pondering that which can be "identifiable" and accurately "known" by a person at the moment....) --So June is going to have to think (when she's finally able to again!) and as she's said above, respond later.

--But she can't sign off here without saying that while she understands why you refer to eternal torment as "nonsense," she has to add that a big part of what fascinates and compels her fascination is that it's not nonsense to those who uphold that particular doctrine of Christianity. June is very, very, very aware of the fact that for those who believe in this particular doctrine, it is very real and true for them. And incredibly important! She therefore can't dismiss it as "nonsense" in either her attempt at understanding it, nor in her being respectful that what a person believes is an integral part of who they are....June doesn't understand that mindset, but she respects the fact that one's ideology, one's faith and belief are just that: their belief. And understand it or not, she'll still respect those who believe it. One of June's former minister friends believed in eternal torment. June "didn't get it", but she still respected her friend despite her lack of understanding, and belief.... (It's "just June" being her "just June" self. She's sure you know what she means, n'est ce pas?)

P.S. Did that come across as June sounding harsh? If so, believe June when she says she was not intending to come across as being harsh! Non!

Last edited by june 7th; 12-07-2013 at 07:08 PM..
Rate this post positively
 
Old 12-07-2013, 07:04 PM
 
7,846 posts, read 3,609,644 times
Reputation: 558
What is the definition of the Lake of Fire,
Isn't it ' second death ' according to Revelation 20 vs 13, 14 ?________
Rate this post positively
 
Old 12-07-2013, 07:38 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
28,851 posts, read 21,202,500 times
Reputation: 13239
[quote=june 7th;32526581]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

WOW! Just....wow!

June thinks a portion of her brain just exploded in reading your response, so you'll have to give her some time to "re-group" in order to respond! Great post! June sincerely, sincerely thanks you for responding to her's. (Wasn't sure it would be, well, "welcomed?") --But June is really glad that you took the time to respond as thoroughly as you did, and will definitely respond to much (a lot!) of what you said a bit later on tonight, after her brain has returned to fully-functioning mode (assuming it ever was to begin with, that is!) as she has a lot to respond with and to!

So let June re-read all that you've written, go back and re-read your OP, think a bit more, and will then ask you to clarify a few points that she'd look forward to your addressing....But in the meantime, thank you Mike! June truly appreciates your taking the time to respond!

(And your post truly did "blow June's mind!") --In a positive sense!
Thanks June. I'm always happy to answer honest questions when I am able to give an answer. And if you would like me to explain the verses which Twin.spin and many others think teach that salvation can be lost, then I will do so. I suppose it's not really off topic at that. Otherwise I'll just his objections be.
Rate this post positively
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2022, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top