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Originally Posted by Mike555
The intent of this thread is to simply present the facts for whoever will listen.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
It is not the intent of this thread to engage in endless argumentation with those who blatantly reject the reality of eternal condemnation, but rather, to answer the legitimate question, 'From what are we saved?'
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Nor is it my intent to defend my motives or the existence of this thread.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
I will however answer legitimate questions.
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This could probably be categorized as a "For what it's worth" post, as June comes to this thread as a nonbeliever, rarely self-discloses (as she undoubtedly will in this post,) or, (for that matter) rarely ever even posts! However, this is a topic that fascinates June, so she felt compelled to chime in. She does so because, as you indicate above, you
are willing to respond to legitimate questions, and that the intent of the thread is for those who will listen. June is willing, and has always been willing to listen, and as you indicate above in saying that it is not your intent to defend your motives or the existence of this thread, June agrees with you: June personally has no problem with those who believe in eternal condemnation or torment, as that is what you, and others believe. It is not June's place (in her opinion) to challenge or reject what another person believes. It is what they believe; they are entitled to their beliefs, and it would be disrespectful of June to say "You're wrong" as she has no right to say that to anyone, relative to what they believe.
So it is with genuine sincerity, and respect, that June is responding to this OP. As mentioned in the paragraph above, this is a topic that fascinates June, while admittedly she doesn't exactly understand how it exists in the minds of those who do believe in it. (But it is merely a lack of fully grasping how one can believe in eternal torment,
not a judgmental stance, as indicated above.)
Perhaps one of the things that has always fascinated June about this topic is for the mere fact that it is a doctrine that in large part, is probably responsible for June's being a nonbeliever in the first place. June was raised in a Christian home and therefore was raised attending church each Sunday, along with the accompanying religious education that Christian parents provide their children. --And yet, it is this very issue which, (at the age of 6, perhaps 7) set in motion June's atheism. At that point in time, in the bible study classes that June was attending as part of her Christian upbringing, there came the chapter on eternal torment. June had a question: She had a relative with whom she was very close, but who happened to be of a religion other than Christianity. June was told that in fact this relative would
not be in the same place (heaven) in the afterlife, as they did not accept Christ as Lord and Savior. This posed a problem for June, even at such a young age (or perhaps because she was so young) as it didn't make sense to her. More to the point, it seemed so incredibly contrary to everything else that up to that point she had learned about Jesus, what "salvation" meant, and the overall nature of Christianity in general. She simply couldn't understand how this loving God, who had created all things of beauty, and was the Source of love in the world, would condemn this relative whom she loved so dearly to hell. Her relative was a good person. In her "little girl June mind" this posed a big problem: it both depressed and confused her. June remembers, as a little girl, praying to God, and asking (and seriously pondering) why this was so. Granted, she had been provided with the answer to the question through her religious instruction, but it just didn't "jive" with
everything else that she had thus far learnt. --Thus ensued the onset, the base, upon which became June's nonbelief. June
wanted to be able to continue to believe in God, but was unable to reconcile this one, particular piece of doctrine with everything else that she had come to know and believe. There was a true source of both confusion and angst that existed for her around this topic.
Fast forward to adolescence: June embarks for college, and proceeds to become pathetically over-educated in obtaining not one, but two undergraduate degrees. June knew that she wanted to become a psychotherapist, so off she went and obtained a degree in Psychology, but she also wanted, very much, to obtain a degree in Theology, as well. So she did. And spent another four years in the halls of "academia" studying the bible, the Church, Christianity. --And yet she was still, after those four years, unable to reconcile herself to the notion of eternal damnation. Granted, she had the "intellectual explanations" and answers (for what truly little they may have been worth) but nonetheless, despite those explanations and answers, June simply could not reconcile what the NT, and what Jesus as the New Covenant in fulfilling the Old Covenant of the OT said with the concept of eternal damnation. She could understand, far better, from a more OT mindset, but nonetheless, it remained unreconciled for her.
--And then came the period of time in June's life when she embarked on what one could surmise could only be termed "full seeker mode." June found that she desperately wanted to be able to believe, wished to return to her childhood roots in her Christian upbringing, and spent the next four years of her life pursuing God. "Pursuing God" is perhaps the only way June can frame that period in her life: She read the bible daily, went to church each Sunday, became friends with two Christian ministers (who she genuinely, without question, believed that God had purposely placed in her life at just that time, as how coincidental could that be for any seeker?) June read and read and read, studied and studied and studied everything she could possibly get her hands on, although all the while fully cognizant of the fact that "faith" (and subsequent belief) were not to be found in the pages of books, with the exception of the bible. Which June read.
Really read. Countless hours spent asking questions, with complete openness, in conversations with her two minister friends. --And sought, and sought, and sought...."Seek and ye shall find." And June prayed, petitioned God to reveal Himself to her.
June finally abandoned her "seeking" after four years of trying with more sincerity than she has words for in order to be able to believe, and resorted back to her "atheist self." --If nothing else, she figured that if, after four years, where she darn near knocked herself out trying to believe, and it hadn't happened (and nobody, in June's mind during this time, wanted to believe more than she did!) then it simply wasn't there to happen; God did not, in fact, exist. June absolutely believed in the notion of there being a benevolent and loving God, but at the same time, during what can only be described as a "dark night of the soul" phase, could not help but wonder (and not too happily!) just why it was that God was holding out on her. Because when June says that during that time she wanted to believe, June means she
wanted to believe! Yet to no avail....
Thus ended June's seeking; thus re-emerged not only June's disbelief, but the subsequent reinforcement to her atheism. Which brings June to this portion of what you say, Mike:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
When in the course of human development a person becomes aware as a result of that natural revelation that God exists, he becomes responsible to God for what he does with that awareness.
It can be deduced based on the fact that God is perfectly just and fair, and cannot be unjust or unfair to any person, that if any person dies without being able to come to that awareness, whether he be a young child, or a person regardless of age who because of lack of mental capacity cannot come to such an awareness, he is automatically saved because of Christ's work on the cross. Now, when through general or natural revelation, a person has become aware that God exists he will either desire to find out something about God, or he will be indifferent regarding God. If a person desires to know God, then God will make sure that that person receives the specific revelation of Jesus Christ through the gospel message, at which point that person must respond to the gospel through faith in Christ if he is to be eternally saved.
Because God is omniscience and has always known all the facts, He is able to steer and direct the events of human history so that at any given point of time in history the gospel can get to wherever positive volition exists.
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Here is where June remains confused: Mike, in the first portion of what you posted that June bolded, you seem to very clearly be saying that even the likes of June, a nonbeliever, will
not be destined to eternal damnation. If June is understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that even atheist June " is automatically saved because of Christ's work on the cross." --But this doesn't make sense to June! Atheists most certainly are NOT going to end up in heaven! (Especially given the fact that we don't believe there is one to begin with....) But if you could say more on this portion of your post, June would welcome that.
In terms of the second sentence that June bolded, based solely on her personal experience alone, she has to disagree. --Because at that point in time when June truly, genuinely wanted to believe, tried her hardest to believe, obtained whatever (meager) degree of faith she was able to obtain, God didn't give to June the "specific revelation of Jesus Christ through the gospel message" such that June
could have had the faith required in Christ in order to be eternally saved. In other words (or in summation) June is saying that this atheist still cannot reconcile the same questions that arose at the age of 6 for her regarding eternal damnation. Is June destined to eternal damnation (based on your first sentence) or not, (despite your second?)
At the end of those four years of truly, genuinely seeking God, belief in Christ, and the desire to know Him and that which enabled the faith provided by grace alone, June ultimately wrote herself off as being "constitutionally incapable" of believing in God. Lord knows she tried. And the questions she has posed here are equally as genuine and sincere, as this topic has been a life-long source of both fascination, as well as confusion in it's overall context within the NT, and Christianity as a whole.
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Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn
Ya see, non believers as such are accusers by nature, they feel victimized by Christians. Accusers don’t want answers they want justice and apologies.. and for believers to make a “mistake” so they can say GOTCHA!
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Dave, with all sincerity, June needs to point out that your statement above is a generalization. She thinks this post proves that.
Lastly, (and then June will shut up, as no doubt anyone who has read this far is either suffering from eye strain or the onset of a migraine due to this post's length!) Mike: If you could elaborate on what you have written below, June would welcome hearing your response in light of what she has said/disclosed in this post, as again you seem to imply that this atheist is not condemned to eternal damnation:
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Originally Posted by Mike555
As I said, it is a matter of deduction that since God is just, and fair, and cannot be otherwise, then it would be unfair for God to leave in condemnation those who simply cannot come to an awareness of His existence, which is necessary before one can make a volitional response to the Gospel concerning Jesus Christ.
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P.S. Regarding the below, and it's true eloquence, "she tried."
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Originally Posted by Mike555
And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
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June's thanks to all who have taken the time to read this far too lengthy post!
Apologies for the length!
("Thank God she never posts!" they all say to themselves!)
Take gentle care, and have a good weekend all!
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--June has a number of very good friends who are Christians! June's two minister friends don't loath her, but she does agree with you that they did their best in terms of sharing, challenging, and encouraging her when she needed and welcomed them in doing so. --And yes, June does believe that in the end they were saddened by the fact that she was never able to come to believe....Although in thinking back now, June can't help but wonder whether it was she who let them down, not the other way around. June does not feel they "failed." Rather, they tried, and were incredibly accepting and receptive. We remained good friends even after June abandoned her "seeking stage" and resumed being a non-believer....