Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And Isaiah 14, is a reference to the fall of the King of Babylon.
While Isaiah 14 is about the king of Babylon, views differ over whether Isaiah 14:12-14 has reference to Satan or not. I believe that it does as Satan was the power behind the throne of Babylon just as he was the power behind the throne of Tyre.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-10-2013 at 09:19 PM..
Wow ... I said there's bad news... and there is, and that = consequences. Kind-of-a stretch to campare bad news to "tormenting non christians for eternity'.
and your conclusion? = what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Dave, Mike's premise for this thread is that people must be Christian in order to avoid being separated from God for eternity in a lake of fire. I'm pretty sure that = "torment for non-Christians for eternity". Nothing you have said indicates that you disagree with him. If you do, I apologize for assuming that you don't.
So, please clarify. When you speak of "bad news" and "consequences" what are you speaking of?
Dave, this thread exploded. If you answered this, would you mind pointing me to the post? If you didn't, perhaps you'll take the time to answer now.
Dave, Mike's premise for this thread is that people must be Christian in order to avoid being separated from God for eternity in a lake of fire. I'm pretty sure that = "torment for non-Christians for eternity". Nothing you have said indicates that you disagree with him. If you do, I apologize for assuming that you don't.
So, please clarify. When you speak of "bad news" and "consequences" what are you speaking of?
Read this (from an earlier post of mine) and contemplate. Romans 2 is the scripture I wrap my heart around. It is written through the lens of love and of truth…. And has some bad news. These scriptures make me subject to my belief, not what I write or say, but what God sees in my heart. So with that in mind, I carefully integrate scripture into my understanding. What I believe is between me and God. I will share when asked, for all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Nowhere does it say … judging. It’s just not my job.
Weather I disagree with Mike is a mute point. However, I do agree with scripture, but I do not understand it all, but by faith I know it’s true. Where I lack understanding the failing is mine, but I do have “opinions” which remain private until I have conviction, then I can use 2 Timothy 3:16.
Sorry it took so long to respond... your right this thread exploded.
Last edited by Dave_n_Tenn; 12-11-2013 at 11:50 AM..
Reason: added an apology
Read this (from an earlier post of mine) and contemplate. Romans 2 is the scripture I wrap my heart around. It is written through the lens of love and of truth…. And has some bad news. These scriptures make me subject to my belief, not what I write or say, but what God sees in my heart. So with that in mind, I carefully integrate scripture into my understanding. What I believe is between me and God. I will share when asked, for all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Nowhere does it say … judging. It’s just not my job.
Weather I disagree with Mike is a mute point. However, I do agree with scripture, but I do not understand it all, but by faith I know it’s true. Where I lack understanding the failing is mine, but I do have “opinions” which remain private until I have conviction, then I can use 2 Timothy 3:16.
Sorry it took so long to respond... your right this thread exploded.
Dave, I'm asking a pretty straight forward question, and I'm not asking you to judge anyone. I'm simply asking you what you believe the "bad news" side of the gospel is, and what "consequences" you were speaking of. Telling me to read a bible passage doesn't tell me what you believe because everyone understands the bible differently. And it is not a moot point whether or not you agree with Mike, because you took issue with people questioning Mike's understanding, remember? ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn
What did God say when you asked Him? No one here is a god, no one speaks for God, unless you’re a prophet and ain't none here I tell ya. Therefore all answers are opinions, your Bible reads the same as mine. What does it teach you? If you believe in a benevolent loving deity, must that deity reveal everything to everyone because it’s “fair” in your eyes?
Lots of questions… so seek to understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
So it's okay for you guys to say you speak for God when you insist that God will torment non-Christians for eternity. But when someone asks you a specific question regarding how that works exactly, suddenly you can't speak for God anymore?
for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil
because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart,you are storing up wrath against yourself
for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger
However this MUST be read in context of Romans 2... 'cause by golly the good news is better.
for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil
because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart,you are storing up wrath against yourself
for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger
However this MUST be read in context of Romans 2... 'cause by golly the good news is better.
So you are not reading eternal torment by God into the text as Mike does, I guess?
Then I guess my question for you is, why do you object to people asking someone like Mike, who posts on a public message board insisting that his understanding is correct, to defend such a belief?
So it's okay for you guys to say you speak for God when you insist that God will torment non-Christians for eternity. But when someone asks you a specific question regarding how that works exactly, suddenly you can't speak for God anymore?
Pleroo, forgive me for being brash, but of cause that is what they are saying. The bottom line is if you disagree with what they believe about eternal torment, you are not speaking for God but against him,and being argumentative in the process, even though universalism is as clear in any bible(using any translation)as eternal torment is to them.
Pleroo, forgive me for being brash, but of cause that is what they are saying. The bottom line is if you disagree with what they believe about eternal torment, you are not speaking for God but against him,and being argumentative in the process,...
I realize that is how Mike sees things. And it certainly seemed that's what Dave was saying as well, but he implied that I was misjudging him, so I'm asking him to clarify.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
...even though universalism is as clear in any bible(using any translation)as eternal torment is to them.
for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil
because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart,you are storing up wrath against yourself
for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger
However this MUST be read in context of Romans 2... 'cause by golly the good news is better.
Do you believe God is a consuming Fire?
Do you believe the wicked have immortality?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
