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That is OT thinking, trettep and it should be cast aside as all the ancient ignorance and superstition of the OT should be.
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Originally Posted by countryboy73
Yup, cast aside the OT, when the NT says, anyone who adds or removes anything from God's Word is accursed.
I would not use Revelation as a guide since it is virtually incomprehensible. Besides, that only applied to Revelation.
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Good idea. As far as the OP is concerned, if we believe God to be all-powerful and omniscient, then no, we cannot work outside His will, because everything we do is according to a plan made an eternity ago. He has known from the beginning of time every step of the path each of us will follow, and nothing we do is a surprise to Him.
That has nothing to do with it. God having knowledge of it does not mean God WILLS it to be so.God gave us Dominion by His Will. Dominion requires free choice.
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Here's something I struggle with that ties in with the OP. Some of the basic tenets of Christianity are:
1. Jesus was sent to earth by God the Father to be an all-encompassing blood sacrifice for all the sins of all the sinners from that day to infinity.
Wrong.
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2. God is omnipresent and omniscient, being everywhere at all times and knowing past, present and future, to infinity.
We have no way of knowing that. It is a human fabrication.
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3. God is all-powerful, and can do anything.
Ditto
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4. God is a just God
Only because it would be loving to be so . . . and God IS Love.
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5. Eve ate of the forbidden tree at the urging of the serpent, widely believed to be Lucifer, a fallen angel who was cast out of heaven for trying to overthrow God's rule of all things. Adam ate also. God then cast them out of the garden, and said all people born after this would be born into sin.
Wrong. That was our first lesson to KNOW Good and Evil . . so everyone after would know the difference . . . know what was "missing the mark" (sin).
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So, we are taught that salvation by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is a great and wonderful gift, and we must accept by faith the gospel he brought us if we are to live forever in eternity with God, rather than suffer forever in hell. I am a Christian, have been for years. But always I have struggled with the idea of a God who knew before any of the events of the Bible took place what was going to happen, then created Lucifer, an angel who would turn against Him and become Satan, then banish Satan but leave him in existence to deceive the man and woman he created. Knowing this, He created man and woman, and left them to be deceived. Then once they were deceived and disobeyed Him, he banished them from the garden and attributed their wrong to all who came after, requiring the killing of innocent animals to atone for various violations. In the course of time, He sends His only Son to earth to die as a blood sacrifice so that He might be able to forgive us all of the sin He attributed to us before we were born. So, in essence God created good- and evil. He allowed evil to exist, and corrupt His creation. Then He held all creation responsible for the acts of one man and woman, and eventually required His own Son to become a human sacrifice to atone for the sins of those yet unborn. (Human sacrifice was an abomination in the OT, punishable by death.) Why not simply destroy Lucifer for his treachery, or not create him at all. Why attribute a wrong to all mankind rather than hold the offender accountable? Why not simply forgive the wrong, without requiring the death of His Son? What good has evil brought to the world? What made it so indispensable that He has allowed it to continue and flourish? What is just about holding unborn people responsible for ancient crimes? Or punishing your flawless, innocent Son for the wrongs of others? That hits me as the equivalent of beating on of my daughters to death in order to forgive the other one for staying out too late. And what is just about punishing and tormenting a person forever(eternity without end) for the wrongs committed in a lifetime, which the Bible compares to a vapor(fading gas)?
All wrong. God did not require Jesus to suffer or pay for anything. He sent Him to tell us we were forgiven for our ignorance ("missing the mark") . . . but our ignorant savage and barbaric ancestors did not believe Him. They scourged and crucified Him for His Gospel of love and reconciliation. Because He was the Son of God He has the same Holy Spirit in His human consciousness that God the Father has. When He died and was reborn as Spirit His human consciousness (Holy Spirit) became part of the collective human consciousness as the Comforter. Now we have the Comforter within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" . . . if we sincerely seek it and trust what is in our hearts.
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These are questions I need answers to, but doubt I get any until I can ask God Himself, as every man I have ever asked has told me that we must take things on faith rather than question God so boldly. I have even been told these questions flirt with blasphemy. But one cannot ban questions from his mind when the answers elude him, and God gave us a mind to use it, not to follow blindly the words of men without working out our own salvation. My only reasonable assumption is that modern Christianity is far from what God intended, and the Bible itself may be somewhat corrupted by retranslation and revision over thousands of years by men with their own agendas. So I go forward as best I can, comforting myself with the idea that we will be judged based on what we know, and so will not be held accountable for following a book that was the best we had to work with. I sincerely hope God concerns Himself with the intent of the heart, as His actions toward David and other would seem to indicate, rather than expecting us all to follow the Bible to the letter. If the intent is what matters, I am good to go, as I genuinely try to do what I believe will be pleasing to Him. But if it is the letter, I may be in trouble...
Let not your heart be troubled. You are on the right path. Modern Christianity IS far from what God intended and the Bible IS corrupted. It has always been about what is the intent of our heart and our state of mind. God wants us to follow Christ's instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. We should try to produce as much agape love as possible during our lives.
That is OT thinking, trettep and it should be cast aside as all the ancient ignorance and superstition of the OT should be.
Mystic, I don't see how you could think that this is Old Testament. This is any testament, any time viewpoint. It is pre-flood, post flood, future, etc.. Reign of Christ, Kingdom come and thereafter....
That is OT thinking, trettep and it should be cast aside as all the ancient ignorance and superstition of the OT should be.
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Originally Posted by trettep
Mystic, I don't see how you could think that this is Old Testament. This is any testament, any time viewpoint. It is pre-flood, post flood, future, etc.. Reign of Christ, Kingdom come and thereafter....
Sorry, trettep. I explained my view to Eusebius.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The prophesies of Christ are the important parts of the OT and He fulfilled them. He also corrected the misunderstanding of what God's true nature IS. Everything was attributed to God by our ignorant ancestors because that is what they always thought. That is why they went out of their way to mistreat cripples, disfigured and handicapped people. They didn't want to treat them better than God did! If you can accept that as reasonable belief . . . we will never agree. I know you take the Bible literally . . . so we need to agree to disagree about that, Eusebius. I know that God inspired truth in the Bible . . . but not everything in it. I use the "mind of Christ" (WWJT) to separate the wheat from the chaff . . . you do not.
I would not use Revelation as a guide since it is virtually incomprehensible. Besides, that only applied to Revelation. That has nothing to do with it. God having knowledge of it does not mean God WILLS it to be so.God gave us Dominion by His Will. Dominion requires free choice. Wrong. We have no way of knowing that. It is a human fabrication.
Ditto Only because it would be loving to be so . . . and God IS Love. Wrong. That was our first lesson to KNOW Good and Evil . . so everyone after would know the difference . . . know what was "missing the mark" (sin).
All wrong. God did not require Jesus to suffer or pay for anything. He sent Him to tell us we were forgiven for our ignorance ("missing the mark") . . . but our ignorant savage and barbaric ancestors did not believe Him. They scourged and crucified Him for His Gospel of love and reconciliation. Because He was the Son of God He has the same Holy Spirit in His human consciousness that God the Father has. When He died and was reborn as Spirit His human consciousness (Holy Spirit) became part of the collective human consciousness as the Comforter. Now we have the Comforter within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" . . . if we sincerely seek it and trust what is in our hearts.
Let not your heart be troubled. You are on the right path. Modern Christianity IS far from what God intended and the Bible IS corrupted. It has always been about what is the intent of our heart and our state of mind. God wants us to follow Christ's instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. We should try to produce as much agape love as possible during our lives.
God did require Jesus to pay and suffer. He had to be made like unto His brothers. The redeemer had to be born of a virgin otherwise He would have been under the same condemnation that we have as members of the Judgment passed on Adam and to members of the body of Adam of which we are.
You know how you say something long enough it finally convince yourself something is true. I think when you use "ignorant ancestors" it is not specific enough and you begin to think that is true. I don't think that we are ignorant when we preach about Universalism and I don't think 1000 years from now anyone should think we are just because we would then be from so long ago.
So what is the will of God ? ...Well it is the true Character of God from the Word of God , Jesus preached on the Holy Spirit , and how believers should be Like Holy Spirit , and How we should not be because the Holy Spirit is not like this .... Then there is the purpose of God which is not what believers should be , like Jesus can judge the World because He has the power to redeem people and the world , where believers cannot judge or condemn because they do not have the power to judge the soul
I would not use Revelation as a guide since it is virtually incomprehensible. Besides, that only applied to Revelation. That has nothing to do with it. God having knowledge of it does not mean God WILLS it to be so.God gave us Dominion by His Will. Dominion requires free choice. Wrong. We have no way of knowing that. It is a human fabrication.
Ditto Only because it would be loving to be so . . . and God IS Love. Wrong. That was our first lesson to KNOW Good and Evil . . so everyone after would know the difference . . . know what was "missing the mark" (sin).
All wrong. God did not require Jesus to suffer or pay for anything. He sent Him to tell us we were forgiven for our ignorance ("missing the mark") . . . but our ignorant savage and barbaric ancestors did not believe Him. They scourged and crucified Him for His Gospel of love and reconciliation. Because He was the Son of God He has the same Holy Spirit in His human consciousness that God the Father has. When He died and was reborn as Spirit His human consciousness (Holy Spirit) became part of the collective human consciousness as the Comforter. Now we have the Comforter within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" . . . if we sincerely seek it and trust what is in our hearts.
Let not your heart be troubled. You are on the right path. Modern Christianity IS far from what God intended and the Bible IS corrupted. It has always been about what is the intent of our heart and our state of mind. God wants us to follow Christ's instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. We should try to produce as much agape love as possible during our lives.
Mystic, here is a Great - NOT GOOD - but GREAT, in fact that is even an understatement, document on Free Will and God's Grace by, OF ALL PEOPLE - Augustine of Hippo:
Mystic, here is a Great - NOT GOOD - but GREAT, in fact that is even an understatement, document on Free Will and God's Grace by, OF ALL PEOPLE - Augustine of Hippo:
Look at chapters such as chapter 41 and such. Awesome insight.
The "Free will" of men is exercised in the Framework that God provides. Therefore, God controling the Framework, therefore controls the will of men.
You consider a constrained and limited human will to not be free, trettep. I disagree. We have freedom to choose within the limits set by God (physical and spiritual laws) . . . but have the freedom. Our Dominion that is the Sovereign Will of God requires that we have the freedom. We will have to disagree.
You consider a constrained and limited human will to not be free, trettep. I disagree. We have freedom to choose within the limits set by God (physical and spiritual laws) . . . but have the freedom. Our Dominion that is the Sovereign Will of God requires that we have the freedom. We will have to disagree.
I'm saying read that Chapter 41 in that link I provided. It is not that long. It may open your understanding.
You consider a constrained and limited human will to not be free, trettep. I disagree. We have freedom to choose within the limits set by God (physical and spiritual laws) . . . but have the freedom. Our Dominion that is the Sovereign Will of God requires that we have the freedom. We will have to disagree.
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Originally Posted by trettep
I'm saying read that Chapter 41 in that link I provided. It is not that long. It may open your understanding.
I am thoroughly familiar with Augustine, my brother. Sorry trettep . . . but my understanding is fine. The ignorant savage understanding of our primitive ancestors is not. They ALWAYS believed that God was responsible for absolutely everything . . . not even acknowledging responsiblity for their own actions. It was the entire context under which they viewed the world. It eliminates responsibility from us for our actions and makes any rules or laws or moral guidelines pointless. It is impossible to be a moral agent if we are not responsible for our actions . . . that is ridiculous, IMO. By God's Sovereign Will we have Dominion here . . . within the limits God has ordained (physical and spiritual laws). It is impossible to exercise Dominion without moral freedom of action. The "God is responsible for everything" nonsense is OT ancient ignorance, period. We will just have to disagree, my friend.
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