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I am thoroughly familiar with Augustine, my brother. Sorry trettep . . . but my understanding is fine. The ignorant savage understanding of our primitive ancestors is not. They ALWAYS believed that God was responsible for absolutely everything . . . not even acknowledging responsiblity for their own actions. It was the entire context under which they viewed the world. It eliminates responsibility from us for our actions and makes any rules or laws or moral guidelines pointless. It is impossible to be a moral agent if we are not responsible for our actions . . . that is ridiculous, IMO. By God's Sovereign Will we have Dominion here . . . within the limits God has ordained (physical and spiritual laws). It is impossible to exercise Dominion without moral freedom of action. The "God is responsible for everything" nonsense is OT ancient ignorance, period. We will just have to disagree, my friend.
Of course not, trettep. That is the way they thought about things back then. In their minds God was responsible for everything including their own decisions . . . so it was the only way they had to say Pharoah changed his mind. The concept of changing minds didn't exist. It was all God doing it. It was a fundamental ignorance and lack of understanding about human agency. We should not still think that way given our knowledge and understanding today.
Of course not, trettep. That is the way they thought about things back then. In their minds God was responsible for everything including their own decisions . . . so it was the only way they had to say Pharoah changed his mind. The concept of changing minds didn't exist. It was all God doing it. It was a fundamental ignorance and lack of understanding about human agency. We should not still think that way given our knowledge and understanding today.
God is the one influencing everything. We exercise our choice in the framework that He provides.
Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
This verse is showing that God is the one that Hardened Pharaoh's heart. This is not Old Testament but New Testament as stated by Paul.
Of course not, trettep. That is the way they thought about things back then. In their minds God was responsible for everything including their own decisions . . . so it was the only way they had to say Pharoah changed his mind. The concept of changing minds didn't exist. It was all God doing it. It was a fundamental ignorance and lack of understanding about human agency. We should not still think that way given our knowledge and understanding today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
God is the one influencing everything. We exercise our choice in the framework that He provides.
I agree that God can influence our decisions, trettep . . . but that is a far cry from actively forcing a change of mind or anything else. Influence is only influence and still subject to the vagaries of human will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
This verse is showing that God is the one that Hardened Pharaoh's heart. This is not Old Testament but New Testament as stated by Paul.
But it is still primitive OT thinking. Paul is just saying that God made him Pharoah . . . because that is what they believed. They had no cognitive concept for changing one's mind. They still thought with the same primitive concepts and mindset of the ancients. You are using a 21st Century mindset and concepts to evaluate a 1st Century mind and its cognitive concepts. They are not remotely comparable. The knowledge, cognitive abilities, concepts and thought pattern differences are too great from those of our ancestors thousands of years ago to use the common thinking of today. The cultural and generational differences add to the incompatibility. The major flaw in interpreting the scriptures has been a lack of understanding of the vast differences in cognition. I know I cannot convince you, trettep . . . so we will just have to disagree.
I agree that God can influence our decisions, trettep . . . but that is a far cry from actively forcing a change of mind or anything else. Influence is only influence and still subject to the vagaries of human will.
But it is still primitive OT thinking. Paul is just saying that God made him Pharoah . . . because that is what they believed. They had no cognitive concept for changing one's mind. They still thought with the same primitive concepts and mindset of the ancients. You are using a 21st Century mindset and concepts to evaluate a 1st Century mind and its cognitive concepts. They are not remotely comparable. The knowledge, cognitive abilities, concepts and thought pattern differences are too great from those of our ancestors thousands of years ago to use the common thinking of today. The cultural and generational differences add to the incompatibility. The major flaw in interpreting the scriptures has been a lack of understanding of the vast differences in cognition. I know I cannot convince you, trettep . . . so we will just have to disagree.
God indeed changes minds. God holds us accountable while He holds Himself Responsible.
What do you say about the carnal minded of whom God says they HATE Him and cannot be subject to the Law of God?
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
If everything happening in this world is the will of God, why then did Jesus teach us to pray..."Thy Kingdom Come Thy Will Be Done on Earth as it Is in Heaven"? Anyone who teaches that evil deeds are God's will are walking on a very slippery place and could easily be deceived and corrupted. Mystic is right about the savage teachings and understandings of early mankind. Resist evil acts, thoughts, behaviors, etc. Good grief!
If everything happening in this world is the will of God, why then did Jesus teach us to pray..."Thy Kingdom Come Thy Will Be Done on Earth as it Is in Heaven"? Anyone who teaches that evil deeds are God's will are walking on a very slippery place and could easily be deceived and corrupted. Mystic is right about the savage teachings and understandings of early mankind. Resist evil acts, thoughts, behaviors, etc. Good grief!
Then let me ask you, why did God not protect the way to the knowledge of Good and Evil by protecting it the same way He did the Tree of Life?
Then let me ask you, why did God not protect the way to the knowledge of Good and Evil by protecting it the same way He did the Tree of Life?
Because he wanted us to KNOW the difference in good and evil which required that it be experienced. However, that doesn't mean he wants us to experience the farthest depths of evil. In fact I believe there is a scripture about that -- about being "children" or "innocent" in matters of evil. If you haven't learned by now that it is wise to flee from every evil idea and temptation, then you missed something along the journey. I know more than enough about the harm that evil brings without dipping into it any further. I desire to be purified as much as possible before I leave this world. Don't you?
Because he wanted us to KNOW the difference in good and evil which required that it be experienced. However, that doesn't mean he wants us to experience the farthest depths of evil. In fact I believe there is a scripture about that -- about being "children" or "innocent" in matters of evil. If you haven't learned by now that it is wise to flee from every evil idea and temptation, then you missed something along the journey. I know more than enough about the harm that evil brings without dipping into it any further. I desire to be purified as much as possible before I leave this world. Don't you?
Yes, I know what that God direct us to flee from Evil and separate ourselves but the lesson He showed in the Old Testament was that man was unable to do so. That man NEEDS God. That man cannot choose God. Man was made subject to vanity (not willingly) but by God's purpose for man was he made that way.
God says that He creates the evil and the darkness. I believe Him. I believe Augustine pinned it down in his document:
CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)
Chapter 41 [XX.]— The Wills of Men are So Much in the Power of God, that He Can Turn Them Whithersoever It Pleases Him.
Chapter 42 [XXI]— God Does Whatsoever He Wills in the Hearts of Even Wicked Men.
Chapter 43.— God Operates on Men's Hearts to Incline Their Wills Whithersoever He Pleases.
That document is extremely englightening and everyone should read it.
You know how you say something long enough it finally convince yourself something is true. I think when you use "ignorant ancestors" it is not specific enough and you begin to think that is true. I don't think that we are ignorant when we preach about Universalism and I don't think 1000 years from now anyone should think we are just because we would then be from so long ago.
Yea, trettep, I wonder if MysticPhD believed king David and Solomon were just ignorant ancestors?
Even Jesus, when asked about the man born blind if the man's parents sinned that this happened to him, Jesus replied that God did it so that later on the man being healed would bring glory to God. That was an evil God created for that man. His whole life was spent bumping into things, needing to be helped etc. Yet it was really for God's glory.
I think MysticPhD needs to give us the school grades of each writer of the OT in order to tell us just how ignorant they were.
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