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Old 02-03-2014, 01:58 PM
 
439 posts, read 377,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
I am curious, though this is off thread.

How does the UPC explain the very clear verses that speak of Jesus as a separate being/person (In scripture there is no distinction between the two, only in English) and "at the Father's right hand" etc?

Same person cannot sit at his own right hand, approach himself etc?
I can't say this is how it was taught to me bc I don't remember being "taught". This is how I've always believed...

This term the “right hand” goes back to ancient Bible times. It was and still is a figure of speech. Today the term is used as such, “John is my right hand man”. That statement today simply means that John is his good friend and someone that can be counted on. The point is that the term “right hand” is a figurative term. Another figure of speech is that “it is raining cats and dogs”. We know that cats and dogs are not coming down from the sky!

The Bible is full of such figurative terms, parables and typology that in some cases we must know a little of the Eastern customs to understand what is being implied and taught in the Bible passage.

The trinitarians look at this term and teach that it proves that two sit on the throne of God.

Let us look at some scriptures using this term “right hand”.

Ex 15:6
6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

Ex 15:12
12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

In the two previous verses we can see that the right hand is not referring to position or location but the power and authority of God. When similar terms are used we find that the Bible never uses God’s left hand to describe His power and strength. Again the term has nothing to do with position or location but the very power and might of the almighty God!

Isa 63:12
12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

Here was another very good example of how the term “right hand” is used to describe power. This time it is used in reference to Moses and how God used him in delivering the children of Israel from Egypt. It says “That led them by the right hand of Moses”. Does this mean that Moses literally took his “right hand’ and led out 3 million Jews? Of course not! It simply means that God used Moses and demonstrated his power through him in that great deliverance. No, it is not about location or position, it is about the power of God in operation.

How many sit on the throne of almighty God?

Rev 4:2
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

According to what John saw only one sits on the throne. If one sits on the throne, who is it? Is it the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?

In the following passages let us remember what we have just learned about the “right hand”. The right hand does not refer to position or location but of power and authority.

Heb 10:12
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

By looking at these verses in a natural sense we then see two on the throne. What did John see? He saw only one! We must know that the Bible always agrees with itself. There is no contradiction in scripture.

Should we look at one verse and make a decision on what God is saying? Should we not look at the Bible as a whole?

Now let us look at the phrase “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high” . Who is Jesus sitting next to here? How can one sit next to “Majesty on high”?

Mark 14:62
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

How can one sit next to “the right hand of power”? The fact is Jesus sat down forever as God with all power and authority. Remember, it is not about location or position.

Isa 66:1
66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

If God is omnipresent how then can you sit down on His right side? If God is a Spirit how then can one sit down on the right side of Him? If it possible to sit on the right side of God as a position then we must say that God is not everywhere but that He is limited to space, that He is confined to a certain amount of height and depth. Is God limited to a certain amount of height and depth? I say not!

Because God is an omnipresent Spirit He does not “sit” as we do on a physical throne. The Heaven is His throne. In other words in the universe He sits and reigns, there is no place where He isn’t.

Jesus Christ sat down with all power as Almighty God on the throne by Himself.

The term “sat down” leads us to more understanding of these passages. In understanding the sacrificing of the priests they were not allowed at any time to sit in the Holy place where the sacrificing was done. There was no place to sit. The reason for this is that their sacrificing was never finished. The sins of the people were only pushed ahead another year. When Jesus became our final sacrifice, He at the same time being the high priest, forever sat down as God ending all sacrifices!

So we see the subject is not about how many are sitting on the throne of God but about Jesus sitting down as the almighty God after the final sacrifice!

The term “the almighty” is used 44 times in the Bible. The last verse referring to the almighty is Jesus claiming to be the almighty. How many almighties do we have? Only one and He Jesus, sits on the throne alone!

Rev 1:8
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Luke 11:20
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

The term “ the finger of God” can be taken literally but again God wants us to understand His great power and authority. Do you think Jesus reached into people’s lives and literally pluck out demons with His finger? A more clear understanding is that God doesn’t even need a whole hand to cast out demons. In a figurative way of speaking God only needs a finger to cast out the devil! The devil is no match for God!

I recommend books you can purchase from your local Christian book store that will help you understand eastern customs. With our western way of thinking sometimes we take the Bible too physical not understanding the intent behind the eastern mind.
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Old 02-03-2014, 02:28 PM
 
1,312 posts, read 1,320,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBrown0830 View Post
They were very simple and not very well educated. A lot of time was spent with that family to show them, on their level, the truth about the Godhead. I remember seeing them break down and cry when it finally clicked.
This is the most arrogant, condescending post I've read on this forum yet.

Quote:
I think it's very important to really know your Bible and know about the Godhead. There should not be any room for error or questions. You have to know your "stuff" if you're going to pastor a church. Pastors have such a hard job and will ultimately end up answering to God in the end if they have been leading the sheep astray. That's why I'm incredibly thankful for my amazing pastor! He is one of the most intelligent people I know when it comes to understanding Gods Word.
I've invested years earning a Master of Divinity Degree. To have you come on here and tell me because my view of the Godhead is different than your view I am leading my sheep astray and going to answer to God for it one day is shameful. I have no respect for those patronizing, haughty, self-righteous Christians that make a mockery of Jesus.
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Old 02-03-2014, 02:56 PM
 
439 posts, read 377,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pastorALly View Post
This is the most arrogant, condescending post I've read on this forum yet.


I've invested years earning a Master of Divinity Degree. To have you come on here and tell me because my view of the Godhead is different than your view I am leading my sheep astray and going to answer to God for it one day is shameful. I have no respect for those patronizing, haughty, self-righteous Christians that make a mockery of Jesus.
If you cannot read my posts the right way, then maybe you shouldn't read them at all. It's so crazy how people translate things!!!

You know nothing about me and here you are calling me names. I am a VERY simple person who leads a VERY simple life. I did not go to college because my family couldn't afford it. I had to pay my own way to go through one year of technical school. So I guess you could call me uneducated too. I NEVER said this family was stupid or ignorant. And yet you made it seem like I did. This family came to our church because all other religions turned them away. They approached our church to learn more because they couldn't understand what was being taught. They needed someone to explain it to them on their level. Which is NO DIFFERENT when I talk to kids. I have to get on their level. Same goes for the older generation, I talk to them differently than I do someone my age. Do not throw stones at me for something I did NOT imply. I do NOT look down at that family and I never have. I love that family to death!!

FURTHERMORE... I never said you were leading your sheep astray. Once again, you are putting words in my mouth.

Quote:
I think it's very important to really know your Bible and know about the Godhead. There should not be any room for error or questions. You have to know your "stuff" if you're going to pastor a church. Pastors have such a hard job and will ultimately end up answering to God in the end if they have been leading the sheep astray. That's why I'm incredibly thankful for my amazing pastor! He is one of the most intelligent people I know when it comes to understanding Gods Word.
Any time I use the word "you" or "your" it's not meaning YOU. It's an "everyone in general" kind of you. But I still never said you were leading your sheep astray. I said pastors have a hard job!!! And they DO!!! But I NEVER EVER EVER implied you were.

You have somehow SERIOUSLY misjudged my character and who I am!!! I am the LAST PERSON who would EVER think about putting someone down or putting my nose up in the air to someone. I give so much of myself to our community and to those who have nothing, even though I have nothing to give!! I still find a way to give to those who are in need!!! I really hope you can change your mind about me because I am not that person you stated above! And my sincerest apologies if I lead you to believe that!!!
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:09 PM
 
32,524 posts, read 34,008,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pastorALly View Post
This is the most arrogant, condescending post I've read on this forum yet.

Oh, please.

JBrown, who projects a good heart IMHO, was just sharing an experience. One DOES have to break things into small pieces when explaining what may be a complicated concept to someone without a lot of education.

MANY people don't have a lot of education. That's just the way it is. Vote in favor of the latest school bond? Let's educate America, shall we? There's a wild idea - spending money on schools instead of getting all butt hurt when someone says Christians are uneducated. Millions are. As are millions of non-Christians. BTW: You might want to think about why you thought that post was arrogant and condescending. I certainly didn't.

Last edited by DewDropInn; 02-03-2014 at 03:23 PM..
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:21 PM
 
439 posts, read 377,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Oh, please.

JBrown, who projects a good heart IMHO, was just sharing an experience. One DOES have to break things into small pieces when explaining what may be a complicated concept to someone without a lot of education.

MANY people don't have a lot of education. That's just the way it is. Vote in favor of the latest school bond? Let's educate America, shall we? (there's a wild idea - spending money on schools! BTW: You might want to think about why you you thought that post was arrogant and condescending. I certainly didn't.
Thank you. I really did NOT mean it the way he took it. When I replied back to him I did not get a chance to say everything I wanted because I was so flustered. They are normal people who are not educated in the oneness doctrine, or even the bible for that matter. So whatever I said either didn't come out right or was misinterpreted. Either way, I'm sorry it happened.

Thanks again for seeing my true intentions. I am one of those people that can't comprehend certain things very well. Especially instructions. You can't tell me how to do something, my mind doesn't comprehend. You have to show me. I can relate to this family SO WELL!!!
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:27 PM
 
32,524 posts, read 34,008,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBrown0830 View Post

Thanks again for seeing my true intentions.
They were very clear to me. Be well, be blessed. Don't let those who would throw rocks and cast stones stop you from posting!
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:42 PM
 
18,173 posts, read 13,385,823 times
Reputation: 9281
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBrown0830 View Post
I can't say this is how it was taught to me bc I don't remember being "taught". This is how I've always believed...

This term the “right hand” goes back to ancient Bible times. It was and still is a figure of speech. Today the term is used as such, “John is my right hand man”. That statement today simply means that John is his good friend and someone that can be counted on. The point is that the term “right hand” is a figurative term. Another figure of speech is that “it is raining cats and dogs”. We know that cats and dogs are not coming down from the sky!
This assumes every use is an analogy, symbolic, etc. But in some cases it can't be.



Rev 1:1 starts out making a physical distinction.

KJV Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This was given to another just as Jesus gave it to ... another being who gave it to ... John.

Quote:

I recommend books you can purchase from your local Christian book store that will help you understand eastern customs. With our western way of thinking sometimes we take the Bible too physical not understanding the intent behind the eastern mind.
I am quite familiar with eastern Customs and even more familiar with the Bible and it clearly shows the two are ... two not one. Some analogy yes, all, nope not a chance.

We would also have to accept that true believers in heaven are really not individuals but just different manifestations of God, based on sitting on the throne.


KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Real or an analogy it only makes sense if all participants are different beings.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:36 AM
 
318 posts, read 227,482 times
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hljc: Do you communicate with the holy spirit ?
Mike555: You wrote: "and He (The Father) who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Whose hearts does He search? And the Father intercedes for the saints according to the will of God? He intercedes for the saints according to his own will?
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:55 AM
 
318 posts, read 227,482 times
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Is it meant with spirit in "The holy spirit", un-corporal being\personality?
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Old 02-14-2014, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
12,462 posts, read 5,740,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans12 View Post
So it is correct that he is God's spirit, and an own person Where in the bible does it say that The holy spirit is God's spirit?
The Holy Spirit is referred to as "Spirit of God' or "Spirit of Christ", etc. in:
Matthew 12:28
Romans 8:9
Romans 8:14
1 Corinthians 2:11
1 Corinthians 3:16
1 John 4:2

Pretty sure the reference is found elsewhere, but those are good examples. But why? Remember that in the Old Testament, the word for "God" is Eloheim, a plural word that actually means "Gods" and that this implication carries forward into the Greek. The language changed, but the singular-plural that is God(Gods) did not change one bit. A Jew saying "God" was still referencing Eloheim. I believe in a less formalized Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One notion that has always puzzled me: Clearly Jesus Christ has a body. Christ is constantly telling us that "I do only what my Father did before me" throughout his ministry. Conclusion: Contrary to popular Christian belief, God the Father has a body. He'd have to if he did everything Jesus did sometime long before Jesus did it. Since Christ did not abandon his body, why would the Father have abandoned his own? I have no clue why it's so important to hang onto, but I expect God knows a lot more than I do.

With all of that in mind, to me these passages are saying "The one among The Gods that is pure Spirit" aka the only member of the Trinity that does not have a physical form. Why? How does that work? Why is it done that way? Again, no idea. But to me, saying Holy Spirit amounts to the same thing. Of the three that are Holy, only one is spirit with no physical form. In both cases we are referencing the attribute that makes the God Holy Spirit distinct from God the Father and God the Son: The fact that he alone (of the three of them) is 100% spirit and nothing more. For some reason, His pure spirit nature allows him to be the medium through which The Gods communicate with each of us.

That's how God whispers it to my heart, so that is what I believe.
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