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Old 02-07-2014, 03:14 PM
 
13,969 posts, read 12,895,057 times
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It would seem so. Let's examine some evidence.

SBFATG doesn't appear until Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9. Even Ephesians is generally believed to be a pseudepigraphical epistle (written by someone else who signed it "Paul") So SBFATG might not even have originated with Paul but perhaps he later picked it up because it sounded "good".

Prior to Ephesians we have NOTHING in the synoptic gospels to indicate SBFATG. It is not until John in roughly 95 AD that SBFATG emerges as a theology. So why did the earliest authors see no need to mention SBFATG if it is absolutely fundamental to salvation? Let's look at some of Jesus' own teachings on how to attain salvation:

Quote:
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:" (Matthew 6:14)
Forgive others and God will forgive you, according to Jesus. No mention of SBFATG.

Quote:
Matt. 19:16-21: "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Again, Jesus stresses actions, not SBFATG, to inherit eternal life.

Quote:
Matthew 5:3: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:7: Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Nowhere in the Beatitudes does Jesus make believing in Him a prerequisite to obtaining mercy and entering heaven. In fact, the ONLY verse in the three synoptic gospels that hints at SBFATG is Mark 16:16, but this was added to Mark's gospel hundreds of years afterward by someone else. It is not found in the earliest copies of Mark's gospel.

What is the problem with SBFATG?

Plenty. In a nutshell, a serial child rapist could spend his life doing the most heinous deeds and just before he dies he could profess belief in Jesus and gain admission directly to God's presence. By simply saying two words, "I believe" all his past depravity is completely wiped clean. By contrast a person like Mother Theresa, who spent her life caring for the poor and toward the end of her life expressed doubt in Jesus, would immediately be sent to hell to burn forever in its fires. Anybody see a problem with this theology?

SBFATG completely negates the need for good works, a foundation of Jesus' teachings in the synoptics. Again the question begs, "If SBFATG were truthful, why do Matthew, Mark and Luke completely skip over it? Why does it not appear until John's gospel when the Christian church was getting into full swing. Perhaps an answer can be found in the fact that church leaders, knowing humans are lazy by nature, hit upon the idea that it was easier to preach a gospel of faith alone rather than works, knowing that potential converts would be more attracted to a religion that taught "all you have to do to go to heaven is believe in Jesus, nothing else, and you will be saved. Thus, John's gospel came into being as a tool of propaganda rather than as a genuine expression of Jesus' requirements for salvation.

I must confess that if I were someone looking for a new religion such a theology as just believing in someone and not having to do anything else would draw me like bees to honey.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 02-07-2014 at 03:51 PM..
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:23 PM
 
35,250 posts, read 18,714,170 times
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No.
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:28 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,148 posts, read 19,256,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
No.
I'll second that.

No.
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:37 PM
 
Location: US
31,563 posts, read 17,288,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
It would seem so. Let's examine some evidence.

SBFATG doesn't appear until Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9. Even Ephesians is generally believed to be a pseudepigraphical epistle (written by someone else who signed it "Paul") So SBFATG might not even have originated with Paul but perhaps he later picked it up because it sounded "good".

Prior to Ephesians we have NOTHING in the synoptic gospels to indicate SBFATG. It is not until John in roughly 95 AD that SBFATG emerges as a theology. So why did the earliest authors see no need to mention SBFATG if it is absolutely fundamental to salvation? Let's look at some of Jesus' own teachings on how to attain salvation:



Forgive others and God will forgive you, according to Jesus. No mention of SBFATG.



Again, Jesus stresses actions, not SBFATG, to inherit eternal life.



Nowhere in the Beatitudes does Jesus make believing in Him a prerequisite to obtaining mercy and entering heaven. In fact, the ONLY verse in the three synoptic gospels that hints at SBFATG is Mark 16:16, but this was added to Mark's gospel hundreds of years afterward by someone else. It is not found in the earliest copies of Mark's gospel.

What is the problem with SBFATG?

Plenty. In a nutshell, a serial child rapist could spend his life doing the most heinous deeds and just before he dies he could profess belief in Jesus and gain admission directly to God's presence. By simply saying two words, "I believe" all his past depravity is completely wiped clean. By contrast a person like Mother Theresa, who spent her life caring for the poor and toward the end of her life expressed doubt in Jesus, would immediately be sent to hell to burn forever in its fires. Anybody see a problem with this theology?

SBFATG completely negates the need for good works, a foundation of Jesus' teachings in the synoptics. Again the question begs, "If SBFATG were truthful, why do Matthew, Mark and Luke completely skip over it? Why does it not appear until John's gospel when the Christian church was getting into full swing. Perhaps an answer can be found in the fact that church leaders, knowing humans are lazy by nature, hit upon the idea that it was easier to preach a gospel of faith alone rather than works, knowing that potential converts would be more attracted to a religion that taught "all you have to do to go to heaven is believe in Jesus, nothing else, and you will be saved. Thus, John's gospel came into being as a tool of propaganda rather than as a genuine expression of Jesus' requirements for salvation.

I must admit that if I were looking for a new religion, something as easy as It would seem so. Let's examine some evidence.

SBFATG doesn't appear until Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9. Even Ephesians is generally believed to be a pseudepigraphical epistle (written by someone else who signed it "Paul") So SBFATG might not even have originated with Paul but perhaps he later picked it up because it sounded "good".

Prior to Ephesians we have NOTHING in the synoptic gospels to indicate SBFATG. It is not until John in roughly 95 AD that SBFATG emerges as a theology. So why did the earliest authors see no need to mention SBFATG if it absolutely fundamental to salvation? Let's look at some of Jesus' own words to attain salvation:



Forgive others and God will forgive you, according to Jesus. No mention of SBFATG.



Again, Jesus stresses actions, not SBFATG, to inherit eternal life.



Nowhere in the Beatitudes does Jesus make believing in Him a prerequisite to obtaining mercy and entering heaven. In fact, the ONLY verse in the three synoptic gospels that hints at SBFATG is Mark 16:16, but this was added to Mark's gospel hundreds of years afterward by someone else. It is not found in the earliest copies of Mark's gospel.

What is the problem with SBFATG?

Plenty. In a nutshell, a serial child rapist could spend his life doing the most heinous deeds and just before he dies he could profess belief in Jesus and gain admission directly to God's presence. By simply saying two words, "I believe" all his past depravity is completely wiped clean. By contrast a person like Mother Theresa, who spent her life caring for the poor and toward the end of her life expressed doubt in Jesus, would immediately be sent to hell to burn forever in its fires. Anybody see a problem with this theology?

SBFATG completely negates the need for good works, a foundation of Jesus' teachings in the synoptics. Again the question begs, "If SBFATG were truthful, why do Matthew, Mark and Luke completely skip over it? Why does it not appear until John's gospel when the Christian church was getting into full swing. Perhaps an answer can be found in the fact that church leaders, knowing humans are lazy by nature, hit upon the idea that it was easier to preach a gospel of faith alone rather than works, knowing that potential converts would be more attracted to a religion that taught "all you have to do to go to heaven is believe in Jesus, nothing else, and you will be saved." Thus, John's gospel likely was "created" more as a tool for propagandizing new converts than stressing Jesus' teachings of good works, mercy, and love being necessary for salvation rather than in Him as Savior. There is no doubt that John is radically different from the synoptics, being the ONLY gospel to emphasize Jesus' Deity as well as the absolutely necessity of believing in Him to obtain salvation.

I must confess that if I were someone looking for a new religion such a theology as just believing in someone and not having to do anything else would draw me like bees to honey.
It is possible...
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:58 PM
 
13,969 posts, read 12,895,057 times
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The text repetition in the OP has been cleaned up.

I can't get anything from a "No" so I must assume they disagree without offering any evidence for why they disagree. Nothing I've stated is untruthful. The part about John being partly a propagandizing tool is my opinion and the opinion of several credible Biblical scholars owing to two glaring facts:

1. John preaches a gospel radically different from the first three.
2. It is the last gospel to be written.

This cannot be a coincidence. There has to be an ulterior motive for John so radically departing from the theology so readily evident in the first three.
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Old 02-07-2014, 04:03 PM
 
8,692 posts, read 7,899,441 times
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See there are conditions for salvation which must be met , as believers need to be compatible to the character of God , which turning away from sin , and resisting sin , as God is a good God , and sin is not good ............Believers need faith as this the hope and love with is the character of God so interaction require faith for confidence of God by being in unity agreeing with God and His plan ........... When Paul said we are saved by faith and not by works or doing God work which no man can boast , as the Work of God is the harvest of souls and helping others through the gifts of the Holy spirit , and so where people getting save and obeying Jesus command for salvation is not work at all ...............Like people go and get Baptized this is not work ...............people who go and forgive others this is not work ,............... people go and pray and repent of sin and receive Jesus spirit this is not work ................ But Jesus helps people who helps other is the work of Christ and this has nothing to do with the salvation of believers ............... Then if people get selfish and reject Christ and ignore helping others and develop a greedy disposition then the fruit of the spirit can be stalled and this can be alien to Christ and His character of loving charity ................. See God requires that the people coming to Heaven can be purified in their souls , so if they hold to evil and ignore the character of God then they could be lost to God as the fruit of the spirit need to be developed ............Legalism of God Word is alien to Holy spirit and will stall all grace from God ... As the spirit which God gives to people born again in the Spirit of God can be developed in the character compatible to God for His eternal life ....
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Old 02-07-2014, 04:07 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,148 posts, read 19,256,212 times
Reputation: 11455
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
The text repetition in the OP has been cleaned up.

I can't get anything from a "No" so I must assume they disagree without offering any evidence for why they disagree. Nothing I've stated is untruthful. The part about John being partly a propagandizing tool is my opinion and the opinion of several credible Biblical scholars owing to two glaring facts:

1. John preaches a gospel radically different from the first three.
2. It is the last gospel to be written.

This cannot be a coincidence. There has to be an ulterior motive for John so radically departing from the theology so readily evident in the first three.
There is another currently running thread on the issue of salvation by grace alone where I have gone into detail.

So, 'No.'
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Old 02-07-2014, 04:13 PM
 
13,969 posts, read 12,895,057 times
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My basic premise starts with "Why don't the synoptic gospels stress salvation by grace through faith alone" the way John's does? Can you point anywhere in the first three gospels (other than the aforementioned Markian passage in Chap. 16 which was added hundreds of years later when salvation by grace through faith alone was already an established doctrine) where Jesus says, "You must believe in Me in order to be saved".

The simple truth is you cannot. Because that is not what Jesus was teaching was the way to enter heaven.
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Old 02-07-2014, 04:29 PM
 
19,943 posts, read 14,766,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
My basic premise starts with "Why don't the synoptic gospels stress salvation by grace through faith alone" the way John's does?
They do. You're confusing causation and correlation.
Quote:

Can you point anywhere in the first three gospels (other than the aforementioned Markian passage in Chap. 16 which was added hundreds of years later when salvation by grace through faith alone was already an established doctrine) where Jesus says, "You must believe in Me in order to be saved".
The sermon on the mount teaches salvation by faith alone -- not works. It preaches a simple faith -- a trust in God.
Quote:
The simple truth is you cannot. Because that is not what Jesus was teaching was the way to enter heaven.
Why does it matter? The writings of the apostles are as equally inspired as the Gospels.
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Old 02-07-2014, 04:35 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
26,148 posts, read 19,256,212 times
Reputation: 11455
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
My basic premise starts with "Why don't the synoptic gospels stress salvation by grace through faith alone" the way John's does? Can you point anywhere in the first three gospels (other than the aforementioned Markian passage in Chap. 16 which was added hundreds of years later when salvation by grace through faith alone was already an established doctrine) where Jesus says, "You must believe in Me in order to be saved".

The simple truth is you cannot. Because that is not what Jesus was teaching was the way to enter heaven.
John's not good enough for you? John did not lie when he recorded what Jesus said in John 6:27:29 about eternal life not being by works but by believing on Him.

Nor did Peter lie when he said at the council at Jerusalem that they believed that salvation is through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ as recorded in Acts 15:11.

So, 'No'.

Last edited by Michael Way; 02-07-2014 at 04:56 PM..
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