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Old 02-15-2014, 11:58 AM
 
441 posts, read 391,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pastorALly View Post
Yikes, after doing some more reading of his posts I'm discovering that too. Thanks for the heads up Mike.

You didn't get a heads-up but a typical distortion of God's word by someone with a denominational bent. Calvin is the gospel kind of guy.

 
Old 02-15-2014, 12:00 PM
 
7,413 posts, read 6,212,853 times
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Christians who believe you need works for salvation, what kind of works? What about people who can't do anything in this life for the kingdom (sick, mentally ill, handicapped) but only have a relationship with the Lord? Do you consider praying, reading the Bible and worshipping works then?
 
Old 02-15-2014, 12:15 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,067 posts, read 26,267,471 times
Reputation: 16206
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBrown0830 View Post
Did you read my post in the other thread? Can you address these scriptures if we don't really need to do what the Bible says?

Read John 3:5 and explain to me what Jesus was really saying when He said you have to be born again of the water and the spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. Then look at Matt 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Then in Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

To ignore all other scriptures about salvation is to ignore the Word of God. Which makes us unbelievers. And if we don't believe we are not saved.

I really recommend everyone to read post #104
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus who was a Pharisee. To a Pharisee, water had the following spiritual meanings;

1.) Water could refer to salvation;
Isa. 55:1 ''Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the water; And you who have no money cone, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.
2.) Water could mean the water of the Word;
Eph. 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.
3.)Water could mean the water of the Holy Spirit;
John 7:38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39] But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Since Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born of water and the Spirit, that rules out number three in which water refers to the Holy Spirit. Otherwise Jesus would have been saying that you must be born of the Spirit and of the Spirit.

Number one is ruled out because Jesus was telling Nicodemus what he must do to have salvation. And since number one is equating water with salvation, it would be redundant to say that one must have salvation to be born again.

Number two which speaks of water in terms of the word - the gospel, is the meaning that best defines what Jesus was saying to Nicodemus. ''You must be born of the gospel and the Spirit.'' When a person responds to the gospel message by believing on Christ he is regenerated or born again by means of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 24:13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
This is part of the Olivet discourse. The church is not found in Matthew chapters 24 or 25 which deal with the Tribulation. Jesus was not talking about being saved in the sense of eternal salvation, but was referring to the fact that the Tribulational believer who survives or endures to the end of the Tribulation will be physically delivered or saved to go into the Millennial kingdom in his mortal body.
Romans 10:13 for whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved.''
Romans 10:13 is a quotation of Joel 2:32. It means to pray in faith for salvation. To express faith in Jesus.

Mark 16:16 is part of a disputed passage [Mark 16:9-20] which is thought not to be part of the original autograph. Other Scripture shows that you are not saved by being baptized in water. Acts chapter 10 for example where Cornelius and his relatives and close friends were all saved before getting baptized.
 
Old 02-15-2014, 12:25 PM
 
18,228 posts, read 16,841,591 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Ironically . . . in a strange way having faith that salvation comes from Christ is true. But not for the reasons you believe, Mike. It has NOTHING to do with what we do or do not do, believe or do not believe. In fact we have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation, period. Christ accomplished it for us. He is our "designated hitter." All the "precepts and doctrines of men" that support the existence and perpetuation of the churches are man-made additions to Christ's simple Gospel of love. HE never said believe all these things ABOUT me. HE said follow me. Love God and each other as I have loved you. Do the things I have done. It had nothing to do with what to believe ABOUT Him. It had to do with "believing ON" Him.
I agree implicitly. What Mike fails to realize is the very process of believing on Jesus alone for salvation is an "act" (good work) in and of itself. So faith + good works is an inescapable formula even for the most die-hard "salvation by faith alone" apostles.
 
Old 02-15-2014, 12:25 PM
 
441 posts, read 391,254 times
Reputation: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus who was a Pharisee. To a Pharisee, water had the following spiritual meanings;

1.) Water could refer to salvation;
Isa. 55:1 ''Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the water; And you who have no money cone, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.
2.) Water could mean the water of the Word;
Eph. 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.
3.)Water could mean the water of the Holy Spirit;
John 7:38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39] But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Water means water from the womb in which one is first born, leaving us with a more exact meaning of what being born again means. Not to add that is a violation, a willful distortion by leaving out that part of which readily explains the new birth.
 
Old 02-15-2014, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,277,508 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Eternal life is a free gift (Romans 6:23; Rev. 22:17) which is received by grace through faith in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:8-9). It is not something which is earned by following Christ. Following Christ has to do with discipleship. Not with eternal salvation.

Working out our salvation has nothing to do with our eternal salvation. It refers to the process of experiential sanctification which is related to the believer's spiritual growth in time.

I suspect that most of the people who believe in works based salvation and who decide to post on this thread probably will not make an effort to objectively read and listen to the studies that are provided in the original post. But they are there for whoever will make the effort.
You may want to consider or investigate this:

Faith in Christ speaks to that of exclusion based on a limited period of time.
Whereas, the Faithfulness of Christ speaks to the inclusion of the whole; unlimited by time.

 
Old 02-15-2014, 12:27 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,067 posts, read 26,267,471 times
Reputation: 16206
What I see so far, and which was expected, is that the usual people who do not believe the Bible's teaching that salvation is by grace though faith in Christ are not even bothering to go into the provided studies in the OP.

This shows a distinct lack of objectivity, and an unwillingness to learn.

I provided this thread so that whoever is willing to take advantage of those studies may do so. For those of you who are unwilling, you are simply taking up my time.

Read and listen to the studies, or don't. If you don't, then you aren't willing to examine the issue with any objectivity.

Avail yourselves of the studies. Whether or not you agree with them is your affair.
 
Old 02-15-2014, 12:29 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,067 posts, read 26,267,471 times
Reputation: 16206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croref View Post
Water means water from the womb in which one is first born, leaving us with a more exact meaning of what being born again means. Not to add that is a violation, a willful distortion by leaving out that part of which readily explains the new birth.
While there are those who believe that water refers to physical birth, and there are those who believe Jesus was referring to water baptism, I have already given the three spiritual meanings which water had to a Pharisee. Jesus' reference to water is best understood in terms of being born of the water of the word - the gospel at which time the Holy Spirit regenerates the one who has believed.
 
Old 02-15-2014, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
10,379 posts, read 10,877,650 times
Reputation: 18713
Or, if the OP's reference is not enough, you can check out the on line version of the Book of Concord 1580, otherwise known as the Lutheran Confessions. A very long article in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession defends the exact same thing. Man is saved by faith in Jesus and not by works. Here's a link.

http://bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php

This is exactly what Luther and those who started the Protestant Reformation taught.
 
Old 02-15-2014, 12:35 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,067 posts, read 26,267,471 times
Reputation: 16206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croref View Post
You didn't get a heads-up but a typical distortion of God's word by someone with a denominational bent. Calvin is the gospel kind of guy.
Actually, I do not belong to any denomination. And neither do the two pastors whose studies I posted.
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