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Old 02-15-2014, 12:25 PM
 
1,312 posts, read 1,254,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croref View Post
Yes! A loving father would always want his children to be a free moral agency, which is what God wanted and needed Adam to be that He could "prove" him. This same procedure was carried over into the life of Jesus when He was "proven" in the wilderness. It is important to know that in both instances God had given the command and then removed the conscientious presence of Himself that the devil could "do his thing" and God could see what was in the hearts of both men that they would keep His command.
Croref, under what conditions today would God remove His presence or providence? Do you see a time in modern history this has been confirmed? What kind of future event would render that? This isn't some test or anything, just two people discussing a subject of interest to me, and I trust for you as well. A little about myself, I like to apply the past to the present that I may avoid an unpleasant future. I see the Bible not as a book of words telling stories, but as God's living Word for all times. I could go on, but the funny farm people with straight jackets might descend upon me. Your thoughts on any and all would be appreciated.
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Old 02-15-2014, 12:27 PM
 
18,173 posts, read 12,592,104 times
Reputation: 9235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
*7* I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.

*6* Shall the trumpet sound in the city, and the people not be alarmed? shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Yes, and that evil He created was the potential to disobey Him. No evil with no disobedience. By setting standards anything that is in opposition to those is by definition, evil.
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Old 02-15-2014, 12:35 PM
 
6,822 posts, read 5,658,705 times
Reputation: 3751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croref View Post
First off, evil isn't sin. God creates evil for His purposes. Sin, He never does __ and can't.

Abraham did and became the "father of faith" for all those that what??!! BELIEVE! I mention him just for starters.

You forget, Jesus didn't come to save the righteous? What made them righteous they didn't need to be saved, __ just redeemed?

Oh that's right. You don't believe that either.You are Romans 3:10 man a suppose.
Evil is wrongdoing.. To do wrong is sin.. To do wrong is not doing what is right.. Ultimately God has allowed evil to demonstrate both His power in Judgment as well as His mercy in forgiveness through the blood of Christ.

Abraham is a very important person to study..

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:5-7
King James Version (KJV)

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

James 2:20-25
King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?


If you study this out, it will be seen that Abraham believed God before circumcision (the outward covenant token of one's faith in YHVH).. Abram was counted righteous the moment He believed God and then was called Abraham. There's good evidence that the "he'" added in the Hebrew indicates the receiving of God's Spirit - the Spirit which ultimately is imputed to the believer declaring the sinner righteous before God by Faith in the promise.

This is confirmed in the book of Galatians to refute those that wanted to add the Mosaic Law and thus merit to pollute the purity of the gospel message. Adding Man's merit to Salvation "puffs up" like leaven.. Leads to a Prideful Spiritual deception.. approaching God with merit as opposed to simply receiving His undeserving mercy and Grace through Jesus Christ.

I believe it's clear when one looks at the "whole council of God" that in James in chapter two is explaining that Faith/Belief in Jesus Christ is not an intellectual acknowledgement but a work of God in a person and the Faith will be demonstrated by their Works. True faith is made manifest by our walk.. There were two responses in the wilderness wanderings.. those that trusted in YHVH's Word by Faith and those that through Fear and unbelief went back to Egypt for help... they didn't trust in the Words of YHVH believing He would deliver the land into their hand.

The word "perfect" in Scriptures could be translated as "complete". We are His workmanship.. ultimately we were Saved for a reason.. one that brings glory to God in Christ.

We are told to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith.. A changed life by the Spirit of God is evidenced by good works.. but we will not live a perfect life after receiving Christ.. just as Peter didn't.. nor John.. etc.. The more one learns about God and His Holiness the more they see how they fall short of His glory.
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Old 02-15-2014, 01:30 PM
 
11,802 posts, read 7,659,206 times
Reputation: 2800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croref View Post
But He said He does. Don't you know that part about Him?
Evil and God cannot COEXIST. The God you describe does not exist. This description of God is from barbaric primitive men that lived thousands of years ago.
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Old 02-15-2014, 01:56 PM
 
441 posts, read 333,453 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Evil and God cannot COEXIST. The God you describe does not exist. This description of God is from barbaric primitive men that lived thousands of years ago.


"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

Thank you
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:05 PM
 
441 posts, read 333,453 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by pastorALly View Post
After reading this I see I mistook you for a true brother in Christ. If you can't display the Great Commandment I hope others will put you on their ignore list as I've chosen to do. Your comments are as fingernails on a chalkboard.
Sorry you feel that way, Pastor. I am a true brother in Christ. But then you don't know me to know that about me. All you have witnessed is my disdain for willful intellectual dishonesty, born in willful ignorance. I have a hard time with that and see it as threat to anyone who may be seeking to know the way to the Father by Jesus Christ. Perhaps I shouldn't show my displeasure and only rebuke it in the Name of Jesus. If I am revealing a lack of prayer, I'll repent.
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:05 PM
 
Location: US
31,609 posts, read 17,353,738 times
Reputation: 2114
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Yes, and that evil He created was the potential to disobey Him. No evil with no disobedience. By setting standards anything that is in opposition to those is by definition, evil.
How do you come to this conclusion??...
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:08 PM
 
Location: US
31,609 posts, read 17,353,738 times
Reputation: 2114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
Evil is wrongdoing.. To do wrong is sin.. To do wrong is not doing what is right.. Ultimately God has allowed evil to demonstrate both His power in Judgment as well as His mercy in forgiveness through the blood of Christ.

Abraham is a very important person to study..

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:5-7
King James Version (KJV)

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

James 2:20-25
King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?


If you study this out, it will be seen that Abraham believed God before circumcision (the outward covenant token of one's faith in YHVH).. Abram was counted righteous the moment He believed God and then was called Abraham. There's good evidence that the "he'" added in the Hebrew indicates the receiving of God's Spirit - the Spirit which ultimately is imputed to the believer declaring the sinner righteous before God by Faith in the promise.

This is confirmed in the book of Galatians to refute those that wanted to add the Mosaic Law and thus merit to pollute the purity of the gospel message. Adding Man's merit to Salvation "puffs up" like leaven.. Leads to a Prideful Spiritual deception.. approaching God with merit as opposed to simply receiving His undeserving mercy and Grace through Jesus Christ.

I believe it's clear when one looks at the "whole council of God" that in James in chapter two is explaining that Faith/Belief in Jesus Christ is not an intellectual acknowledgement but a work of God in a person and the Faith will be demonstrated by their Works. True faith is made manifest by our walk.. There were two responses in the wilderness wanderings.. those that trusted in YHVH's Word by Faith and those that through Fear and unbelief went back to Egypt for help... they didn't trust in the Words of YHVH believing He would deliver the land into their hand.

The word "perfect" in Scriptures could be translated as "complete". We are His workmanship.. ultimately we were Saved for a reason.. one that brings glory to God in Christ.

We are told to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith.. A changed life by the Spirit of God is evidenced by good works.. but we will not live a perfect life after receiving Christ.. just as Peter didn't.. nor John.. etc.. The more one learns about God and His Holiness the more they see how they fall short of His glory.
He does not say He allows evil, He says He creates it...Are you calling Him a liar?...
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:10 PM
 
Location: US
31,609 posts, read 17,353,738 times
Reputation: 2114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Evil and God cannot COEXIST. The God you describe does not exist. This description of God is from barbaric primitive men that lived thousands of years ago.
How were they barbaric?...
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:35 PM
 
18,173 posts, read 12,592,104 times
Reputation: 9235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
How do you come to this conclusion??...
Genesis.

The Tree of knowledge. Adam knew it was wrong to eat and the end of doing so was death due to disobedience. Disobedience of God is evil. Doesn't take genius to figure out that the one who created you has the power to end your life. He gives Adam a choice, walks and talks with Asam every evening and then Adam chose to disobey his loving life giver???

Actually it existed before that when Satan lied about God and that is evil. God created beings with the capacity to due evil such as lie.
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