What do think God meant when He declared: . . . . (believe, Jesus, Bible)
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Only that the reaction from the Jews shows that Jesus was in fact claiming to be the same person who said "I AM" to Moses.
Jesus: "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
Jews response: “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
Jews reaction: "At this, they picked up stones to stone him"
There is only one reason for them to "picked up stones to stone him" .... the same reason they attempted to kill Jesus another time:
John 10:33
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
There reaction is easy to understand as they saw it as a claim to be the Messiah as only the Messiah could make the claim of pre-existence. Had nothing to do with being "God".
Like John 1:1, no early Christian writer through at least the end of the 3rd century ever used John 8:58 in support of any idea Jesus was God, especially since the Jews heard Jesus saying God was his Father. The writers knew the language and didn't say what you are told it did. The Jews had no knowledge of a trinity so they would not see him claiming to BE God, rather His Son the messiah.
There reaction is easy to understand as they saw it as a claim to be the Messiah as only the Messiah could make the claim of pre-existence. Had nothing to do with being "God".
Like John 1:1, no early Christian writer through at least the end of the 3rd century ever used John 8:58 in support of any idea Jesus was God, especially since the Jews heard Jesus saying God was his Father. The writers knew the language and didn't say what you are told it did. The Jews had no knowledge of a trinity so they would not see him claiming to BE God, rather His Son the messiah.
Really?? You need to read on to see where they did make that charge against Him. I believe it was something about being equal with God, I think.
Jesus has always been God (John 1:1-3, Hebrews 13:8) ... just at the time when spoken he choose to not let it be seen (thus the term "state of humiliation" )as it is explained:
Philippians 2:5-7 Christ Jesus ...Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
Try better translations.
ASV Philippians 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
ESV Philippians 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
NAB Philippians 2:6 Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
NJB Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped.
RSV Philippians 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Angels, like Jesus are also spirits and so is ... God. They all exist in that form a heavenly one.
ASV 1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Plus how can God give up being God as even the trinity denies he did that. The claim is God AND man, so he did not give up being God if you are correct and thus did not "empty" himself at all.
NAS Philippians 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant,
I AM THAT I AM, is not God’s Personal Name. But, I AM THAT I AM, it identifies him as to “WHAT” he is. just as Yahweh, and Jehovah are not his Personal name either. either way one want to translate it, “I AM THAT I AM,”, or “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. makes no difference. because the Personal name of “JESUS”, as to “WHO” God is, this is the PERSONAL NAME OF GOD. the tetragrammaton, YHWH, or YHVH, is H1961 הָיָה hayah (haw-yaw) v. which is a VERB, and not a NOUN. which means,
1. to exist
2. to be or become
3. to come into being,
and this verb can be found in Genesis 1:2 through out the old testament, even until Zechariah.
What some one is vs as to “WHO” someone is in name, or Person is not the same. God never gave his Personal Name, until he showed up in flesh. and then was the name given. Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us”. Personal names identify “WHO” one is. common names, or titles, or, Epithet, or an Appellation, identify “WHAT” the person is, as in description, or of an actual or attributed quality. an appellation, title, or epithet, applied descriptively, in honor, positive, or in the negative, abuse. example, Catherine the Great, Ivan the terrible. Baby face Nelson.
the Personal name “JESUS”, is greater than the tetragrammaton. for in the Personal name of JESUS, Hebrew, YESHUA, within this Personal is the identification, and the attributes of God. I notice in the OP it was stated that the Lord Jesus used I AM. Yes, for he is I AM , (God), in flesh. scripture, Isaiah 52:5 "Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I”. this was fulfilled in, John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins”. here, clearly our Lord declare himself to be the eternal Spirit in flesh, (which is the shared spirit). Lord Jesus, in the old testament said, “ they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I”. and as to the Personal name “JESUS” as Identified as God, scripture, Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear”. this is almighty God speaking, now, Philippians 2:10 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”. God in Isaiah 45:23, said that unto HIM, “every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear”, unto him, (GOD). and in Philippians 2:10 & 11, this is done unto JESUS.
so the declaration as to our Lord’s deity is confirm in the old testament, as well as the new. our Lord JESUS is a diversity of the true God in flesh, and bone, with blood.
and if someone declares, Yahweh, and or, Jehovah, they are only declaring made up names from a verb which describes a TITLE. some people are worshiping, and following a title, instead of the true Personal name, "JESUS"
Only that the reaction from the Jews shows that Jesus was in fact claiming to be the same person who said "I AM" to Moses.
Jesus: "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
Jews response: “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
Jews reaction: "At this, they picked up stones to stone him"
There is only one reason for them to "picked up stones to stone him" .... the same reason they attempted to kill Jesus another time:
John 10:33
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Nope as his answer in John 10 finally got through to them.
This is why at his trial they NEVER brought it up, rather charged him with claiming to be God's Son the Christ.
They listened to Jesus denial and .... most never read that far
KJV Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
ASV Matthew 26:66 what think ye? They answered and said, He is worthy of death.
KJV Luke 23:1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.
21 But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
KJV John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
They finally got it and used it against him. The idea that Jesus was claiming to be GOD was so clearly denied by Jesus that even those liars had to change their story to what he did say and mean.
This is missed if we ignore the full account, context, etc.
He never claimed to be God, rather he always denied it and said God was his Father. Don't you believe Jesus?
. and as to the Personal name “JESUS” as Identified as God, scripture, Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear”. this is almighty God speaking, now, Philippians 2:10 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”.
It was right there in front of you and you missed it.
every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”
Not to glorify Jesus name at all, rather to fulfill Jesus own words.
ASV John 17:26 and I made known unto them thy name, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou lovedst me may be in them, and I in them.
What name?
YHWH/Yehowah/YaHeWeh/Jehovah.
They knew it too.
KJV Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great *****, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
1162 alleluia, transliterated from the Hebrew; literally praise Yahweh (Jehovah); transliterated into English as hallelujah, alleluia, used as a worship formula
NAB Psalm 150:6 Let everything that has breath give praise to the LORD! Hallelujah!
ASV Psalm 150:6 Let everything that hath breath praise Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah.
KJV John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Notice the lower case "am" the KJV translators knew it was not a reference to EX 3:14 at all. So do others.
1) “[F]rom before Abraham was, I have been.”— The New Testament, George R. Noyes, D.D., Professor Of Hebrew And Other Oriental Languages And Dexter Lecturer On Biblical Literature In Harvard University,” 1869.
2) “[b]efore Abraham was, I have been.”— Syriac-Edition: A Translation of the FourGospels from the Syriac of the Sinaitic Palimpsest, Agnes Smith Lewis, 1886, from a 4th/5th century manuscript. (Syriac and Aramaic are forms of the same language.)
3) “[b]efore Abraham existed, I was.”— Syriac Pe****a-Edition: The Syriac New Testament into English from the Pe****to Version, seventh edition, James Murdock, 1896, from 5th century manuscripts.
4) “[b]efore Abraham to be, I was.”— Curetoian Syriac-Edition: The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, F. Crawford Burkitt, 1904, from 5th century manuscripts.
5) “[b]efore Abraham cane to be, I was.”— Georgian-Edition: “The Old GeorgianVersion of the Gospel” of John, P. Blake, M. Briere, in Patrologia Orientallis, Vol. XXVI, fascicle 4, Paris, 1950, from 5th century manuscripts.
6) “[b]efore Abraham was born, I was.”— Ethiopic-Edition: Novum Testamentum Æthioice, T.P. Platt, revised by F. Praetorius, Lepzig, 1899.
7) “I was before Abraham was born.”— The New Testament Or Rather The New Covenant, Samuel Sharpe, 1881.
8) “[b]efore Abraham existed I was already what I am.”— The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1904.
9) “[b]efore Abraham came to be, I was.”— The New Testament (in German), Curt Stage, 1907.
10) “[b]efore Abraham became, I, I, am being.”— The Coptic Version of the New Testament in the Southern Dialect, George William Horner, 1911
11) “[b]efore Abraham came into being, I have existed.”— The Documents Of The New Testament, G.W. Wade 1934.
12) “I have existed before Abraham was born.”— The Bible A New Translation, James Moffatt, 1935.
13) “Before Abraham was, I have been.”— The New Testament in Hebrew, Franz Delitzsch, 1937 edition.
14) “I existed before Abraham was born.”— An American Translation, Smith and Goodspeed, 1939.
15) “Before Abraham was born, I was.”— The New Testament According To The Eastern Text, George Lamsa, 1940.
16) “I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham.”— Isaac Salkinson and David Ginsberg, The New Testament in Hebrew, 1941 edition.
17) “I existed before Abraham was born.”— The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, George Swan, 1947.
18) “Before there was an Abraham, I was already there.”— The New Testament (in German), Friedreich Pfaefflin, 1949.
19) “I am here - and I was before Abraham.”— The New Testament, James A. Klist, S.J., and Joseph L. Lilly, C.M., 1954. Footnote in same: “Christ here states (1) that he “was” already “in existence” before Abraham “came into being”; and (2) that, since then he has always been, and “still is,” in existence. The two statements, fused into one grammatical expression, stress the idea of continuity from before Abraham’s time down to the present moment and intimate his eternity. The statement in Exod. 3:14 is different: “I am he whose essence it is to be.,” [Christ is disclosing his being before Abraham; but to say that ‘he intimated his eternity’, is reading more into the statement than is there. ed.]
20) “I existed before Abraham was born.”— The Authentic New Testament, Hugh J. Schonfield, 1958.
21) “Before Abraham existed I was existing.”— Biblia Sagrada (Sacred Bible, in Portuguese), Roman Catholic, second edition, 1960.
22) “[O]r, I have been,” (margin) — New American Standard Bible, editions of 1960-1973. (Later removed!)
23) “I existed before Abraham was born.” — The New Testament Of Our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ, Translated Into English From The Approved Greek Text Of The Church Of Constantinople And the Church Of Greece, by Metropolitan Archbishop Fan S. Noli, 1961.
24) “I existed before Abraham was born.” — The New Testament In The Language Of The People, Charles B. Williams, 1963, (“honored preceptor” of H.E. Dana and Julius R. Mantey. (See: A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, H.E Dana and Julius R. Mantey, 1927-57; p. x.) Mantey, in a review of his former teacher’s translation, said: “Williams’ translation, considering all the factors, is the most accurate and illuminating translation in the English language.”–“Introduction” to Williams’ translation; Moody Press. Yet Mantey condemns the New World Translation’s render- ing of John 8:58, which has the same meaning as Williams’ rendering!)
25) “I tell you in truth,” Jesus told them, “I was before Abraham.”— The New Testament In The Language Of Today, William G. Beck, 1973.
26) “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was born.”— The Living Bible, Kenneth Taylor, 1971.
27) “Truly I tell you, I existed even before Abraham was born.”— The Concise Gospel and The Acts, Christopher J. Christianson, 1973.
28) “I am from before Abraham was.”— The Four Gospels And The Revelation, Richmond Lattermore, 1979.
29) “[T]o make sense, one must say “Before Abraham existed, I existed” or “...I have existed.”—A Translator’s Handbook on the Gospel of John, Barclay M. Newman and Eugene A. Nida. 1980.
30) “I was alive before Abraham was born.”— The Simple English Bible, 1981.
31) “I tell you for a positive fact, I existed before Abraham was born.”— The Original New Testament, Hugh J. Schonfield, 1985.
32) “I existed before there was an Abraham.”— The Complete Gospels Annotated Scholars Version, Robert J. Miller editor, 1994.
33) “4.2.4.Extension from past. When used with an expression of either past time or extent of time with past implications…the present tense signals an activity begun in the past (e.a.) and continuing to present time; Lu 13:7…Lu 15: 29…Jn 14:9…Ac 27: 33…Jn 8:58…I have been in existence since before Abraham was born.”— K. L. McKay, A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek, Peter Lang, New York, 1994, pp. 41-2.
34) “The verb ‘to be’ is used…in what is presumably its basic meaning of ‘be in existence’, in John 8:58: prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi…which would be most naturally translated ‘I have been in existence since before Abraham was born’…if it were not for the obsession with the simple words ‘I am.’ If we take the Greek words in their natural meaning, as we surely should, the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd’s violent reaction.” —K. L. McKay, THE EXPOSITORY TIMES, “ I am in John’s Gospel”, July 1996, Vol. 17, Number 10, p. 302. In the LXX at Genesis 31:38, ejgw eijmiis rendered as “have I been”.
35) “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”― New Living Translation, 1996.
Keep in mind every angel could say the same thing.
Very impressive (non-sense)!
The people wanted to Stone Jesus because he had just committed Blasphemy! Equating Himself as Equal with God!
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