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Old 02-17-2014, 12:56 PM
 
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. . . . . "I AM THAT I AM"?

Jesus said the same thing about Himself when relating Himself to Abraham and yet He wasn't God at the time when He said it?

Interesting, isn't it?
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:00 PM
 
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"I am" means the becoming one, so he will become whatever we need. It's an eternal name.
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by daylux View Post
"I am" means the becoming one, so he will become whatever we need. It's an eternal name.

I like that . . Now we can more ably understand why Jesus could say, "I AM".
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:12 PM
 
18,173 posts, read 12,467,427 times
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Originally Posted by Croref View Post
. . . . . "I AM THAT I AM"?

Jesus said the same thing about Himself when relating Himself to Abraham and yet He wasn't God at the time when He said it?

Interesting, isn't it?
Setting aside the lousy translation.

He basically was not giving His name but a description of what he was like.


Such a translation [in English] as “I am what I am” appears to be ruled out completely by the fact that the verbs [in Hebrew] here are imperfects. “I am” is the normal translation of the Hebrew perfect, not an imperfect. ... The translation offered here relates this explanation of the name to covenants with the patriarchs. As such it was a basis of assurance concerning Yahweh’s presence and support. This thought is made explicit in the verse that follows, and the proper name Yahweh, the memorial name, is made synonymous with the description “I shall continue to be what I have always been.” This makes the description a restatement of Yahweh’s faithfulness an assurance that he will fulfill the covenants with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.—J. Wash Watt, Professor of Old Testament, New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, 1930-1968, A DistinctiveTranslation of Exodus With An Interpretative Outline, 1977, pp. 140–1.

The translation I am [in English] is doubly false: the tense is wrong, being present; and the idea is wrong, because am [in such an incorrect translation] is used in the sense of essential existence. All those interpretations which proceed upon the supposition that the word is a name of God as the self-existent, the absolute, of which the Septuagint’s ho ohn is the most conspicuous illustration, must be set aside ... the nature of the verb [in Hebrew] and the tense peremptorily forbid them.—A.B. Davidson, “The Theology of the Old Testament”, in The International Theological Library, 1920, p. 55.

Most moderns follow Rashe [Shelomoh Ben Yishaq, 1040(?)—1105; see: Encyclopedia Americana, 1956, Volume 23, page 220] in rendering ‘I will be what I will be’ i.e. no words can sum up all that He will be to His people, but His everlasting faithfulness and unchanging mercy will more and more manifest themselves in the guidance of Israel. The answer, which Moses receives in these words, is thus equivalent to, ‘I shall save in the way that I shall save.’ It is to assure the Israelites of the fact of deliverance, but does not disclose the manner.—J.H. Hertz, The Pentateuch and Hoftorahs, 1950, footnote to Exodus 3:14.

“I Will Become Whatsoever I please”—Rotherham added this footnote to Exodus 3:14 in his translation: “Hayah [to be” root of “ehyeh”] does not mean ‘to be essentially or ontologically [i.e. what He is basically or that He exists], but phenomenally [i.e., what He will do]. ... it seems that in the view of the writer ‘ehyeh and yahweh are the same: that God is ‘ehyeh ‘I will be’ when speaking of Himself, and yahweh’ when spoken of by others. What he will be is left unexpressed — He will be with them, helper, strengthener, deliverer.”Professor A.B. Davidson, in Hastings Bible Dictionary, Vol. II, [p.] 199.”

He was having Moses assure them of His help and ability. Then he gave them the name He was to always be known by.

ASV Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

It is a shame that most peoples Bible ends at VS 14 and they can't read the rest of what was said.
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:19 PM
 
18,173 posts, read 12,467,427 times
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Originally Posted by Croref View Post
. . . . . "I AM THAT I AM"?

Jesus said the same thing about Himself when relating Himself to Abraham and yet He wasn't God at the time when He said it?

Interesting, isn't it?
Oh, Jesus did not say the same thing at all.

KJV John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Notice the lower case "am" the KJV translators knew it was not a reference to EX 3:14 at all. So do others.


1) “[F]rom before Abraham was, I have been.”— The New Testament, George R. Noyes, D.D., Professor Of Hebrew And Other Oriental Languages And Dexter Lecturer On Biblical Literature In Harvard University,” 1869.

2) “[b]efore Abraham was, I have been.”— Syriac-Edition: A Translation of the FourGospels from the Syriac of the Sinaitic Palimpsest, Agnes Smith Lewis, 1886, from a 4th/5th century manuscript. (Syriac and Aramaic are forms of the same language.)

3) “[b]efore Abraham existed, I was.”— Syriac Pe****a-Edition: The Syriac New Testament into English from the Pe****to Version, seventh edition, James Murdock, 1896, from 5th century manuscripts.

4) “[b]efore Abraham to be, I was.”— Curetoian Syriac-Edition: The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, F. Crawford Burkitt, 1904, from 5th century manuscripts.

5) “[b]efore Abraham cane to be, I was.”— Georgian-Edition: “The Old GeorgianVersion of the Gospel” of John, P. Blake, M. Briere, in Patrologia Orientallis, Vol. XXVI, fascicle 4, Paris, 1950, from 5th century manuscripts.

6) “[b]efore Abraham was born, I was.”— Ethiopic-Edition: Novum Testamentum Æthioice, T.P. Platt, revised by F. Praetorius, Lepzig, 1899.

7) I was before Abraham was born.”— The New Testament Or Rather The New Covenant, Samuel Sharpe, 1881.

8) “[b]efore Abraham existed I was already what I am.”— The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1904.

9) “[b]efore Abraham came to be, I was.”— The New Testament (in German), Curt Stage, 1907.

10) “[b]efore Abraham became, I, I, am being.”— The Coptic Version of the New Testament in the Southern Dialect, George William Horner, 1911

11) “[b]efore Abraham came into being, I have existed.”— The Documents Of The New Testament, G.W. Wade 1934.

12) I have existed before Abraham was born.”— The Bible A New Translation, James Moffatt, 1935.

13) “Before Abraham was, I have been.”— The New Testament in Hebrew, Franz Delitzsch, 1937 edition.

14) “I existed before Abraham was born.”— An American Translation, Smith and Goodspeed, 1939.


15) “Before Abraham was born, I was.”— The New Testament According To The Eastern Text, George Lamsa, 1940.

16) I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham.”Isaac Salkinson and David Ginsberg, The New Testament in Hebrew, 1941 edition.

17) “I existed before Abraham was born.”The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, George Swan, 1947.

18) “Before there was an Abraham, I was already there.”The New Testament (in German), Friedreich Pfaefflin, 1949.

19) “I am here - and I was before Abraham.”— The New Testament, James A. Klist, S.J., and Joseph L. Lilly, C.M., 1954. Footnote in same: “Christ here states (1) that he “was” already “in existence” before Abraham “came into being”; and (2) that, since then he has always been, and “still is,” in existence. The two statements, fused into one grammatical expression, stress the idea of continuity from before Abraham’s time down to the present moment and intimate his eternity. The statement in Exod. 3:14 is different: “I am he whose essence it is to be.,” [Christ is disclosing his being before Abraham; but to say that ‘he intimated his eternity’, is reading more into the statement than is there. ed.]

20) I existed before Abraham was born.”— The Authentic New Testament, Hugh J. Schonfield, 1958.

21) “Before Abraham existed I was existing.”— Biblia Sagrada (Sacred Bible, in Portuguese), Roman Catholic, second edition, 1960.

22) “[O]r, I have been,” (margin) — New American Standard Bible, editions of 1960-1973. (Later removed!)

23) I existed before Abraham was born.” — The New Testament Of Our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ, Translated Into English From The Approved Greek Text Of The Church Of Constantinople And the Church Of Greece, by Metropolitan Archbishop Fan S. Noli, 1961.

24) I existed before Abraham was born.” — The New Testament In The Language Of The People, Charles B. Williams, 1963, (“honored preceptor” of H.E. Dana and Julius R. Mantey. (See: A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, H.E Dana and Julius R. Mantey, 1927-57; p. x.) Mantey, in a review of his former teacher’s translation, said: “Williams’ translation, considering all the factors, is the most accurate and illuminating translation in the English language.”–“Introduction” to Williams’ translation; Moody Press. Yet Mantey condemns the New World Translation’s render- ing of John 8:58, which has the same meaning as Williams’ rendering!)

25) “I tell you in truth,” Jesus told them, “I was before Abraham.”— The New Testament In The Language Of Today, William G. Beck, 1973.

26) “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was born.”— The Living Bible, Kenneth Taylor, 1971.

27) “Truly I tell you, I existed even before Abraham was born.”— The Concise Gospel and The Acts, Christopher J. Christianson, 1973.

28) I am from before Abraham was.”— The Four Gospels And The Revelation, Richmond Lattermore, 1979.

29) “[T]o make sense, one must say “Before Abraham existed, I existed” or “...I have existed.”—A Translator’s Handbook on the Gospel of John, Barclay M. Newman and Eugene A. Nida. 1980.

30) “I was alive before Abraham was born.”— The Simple English Bible, 1981.

31) “I tell you for a positive fact, I existed before Abraham was born.”— The Original New Testament, Hugh J. Schonfield, 1985.

32) I existed before there was an Abraham.”— The Complete Gospels Annotated Scholars Version, Robert J. Miller editor, 1994.

33) 4.2.4. Extension from past. When used with an expression of either past time or extent of time with past implications…the present tense signals an activity begun in the past (e.a.) and continuing to present time; Lu 13:7…Lu 15: 29…Jn 14:9…Ac 27: 33…Jn 8:58…I have been in existence since before Abraham was born.K. L. McKay, A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek, Peter Lang, New York, 1994, pp. 41-2.

34) “The verb ‘to be’ is used…in what is presumably its basic meaning of ‘be in existence’, in John 8:58: prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi…which would be most naturally translated ‘I have been in existence since before Abraham was born’…if it were not for the obsession with the simple words ‘I am.’ If we take the Greek words in their natural meaning, as we surely should, the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd’s violent reaction.” K. L. McKay, THE EXPOSITORY TIMES, “ I am in John’s Gospel”, July 1996, Vol. 17, Number 10, p. 302. In the LXX at Genesis 31:38, ejgw eijmiis rendered as “have I been”.

35) “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”― New Living Translation, 1996.

Keep in mind every angel could say the same thing.
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:39 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Originally Posted by Croref View Post
. . . . . "I AM THAT I AM"?

Jesus said the same thing about Himself when relating Himself to Abraham and yet He wasn't God at the time when He said it?

Interesting, isn't it?
Jesus has always been God (John 1:1-3, Hebrews 13:8) ... just at the time when spoken he choose to not let it be seen (thus the term "state of humiliation" )as it is explained:
Philippians 2:5-7
Christ Jesus ...Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

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Old 02-17-2014, 01:40 PM
 
11,751 posts, read 7,594,727 times
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Originally Posted by Croref View Post
. . . . . "I AM THAT I AM"?

Jesus said the same thing about Himself when relating Himself to Abraham and yet He wasn't God at the time when He said it?

Interesting, isn't it?
Simple:

"Cogito ergo sum"

Makes sense.
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Croref View Post
. . . . . "I AM THAT I AM"?

Jesus said the same thing about Himself when relating Himself to Abraham and yet He wasn't God at the time when He said it?

Interesting, isn't it?

Please give the book, chapter and verse where Jesus said: I am that I am.
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:47 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Oh, Jesus did not say the same thing at all.

KJV John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am..
Only that the reaction from the Jews shows that Jesus was in fact claiming to be the same person who said "I AM" to Moses.
Jesus: "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

Jews response: “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
Jews reaction: "At this, they picked up stones to stone him"
There is only one reason for them to "picked up stones to stone him" .... the same reason they attempted to kill Jesus another time:
John 10:33
We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Please give the book, chapter and verse where Jesus said: I am that I am.
Surely you know when He was relating Himself to Abraham. Surely you know the chapter and verse? __ or are you just trying nit pick and play words games to disprove me?
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