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What I'm trying to get at here is the degree to which each of us is responsible for Christ's suffering. In other words, would you say it is more accurate to say that Jesus suffered for the sins of mankind collectively or for each person's sins individually?
What I'm trying to get at here is the degree to which each of us is responsible for Christ's suffering. In other words, would you say it is more accurate to say that Jesus suffered for the sins of mankind collectively or for each person's sins individually?
Ah, Kat!! I am 100% responsible for Christ's suffering. How much others think they are responsible for is up to them!
What I'm trying to get at here is the degree to which each of us is responsible for Christ's suffering. In other words, would you say it is more accurate to say that Jesus suffered for the sins of mankind collectively or for each person's sins individually?
Where anthropology & hamartiology intersect is where I found the answer.
What I'm trying to get at here is the degree to which each of us is responsible for Christ's suffering. In other words, would you say it is more accurate to say that Jesus suffered for the sins of mankind collectively or for each person's sins individually?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Wow, this must be a question people are uncomfortable answering!
Katzpur, certainly Jesus had to pay for each and every sin ever committed in human history, past, present, and future in order to make salvation possible for the world and a reality for whoever believes in Him. He died for each one of us. He died for you personally, He died for me personally, and He died personally for each and every individual person so that anyone who simply trusts in Him alone has eternal life. Each one of us personally is responsible for Jesus' suffering on the cross. If you (anyone) believe that Jesus died for you personally and therefore receive Him as Savior then you have eternal life. I hope that answers your question.
Jesus' death was for several reasons ... the original sin of Adam & Eve and the individual's sin
God revealed original sin by:
Adam & Eve's rebellion
Romans 5:19 -21 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners ...
... Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;
and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
God revealed the individual:
My rebellion:
Psalm 32:5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid.
I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
That has always been the Gospel message of Jesus Christ
“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.†(Hebrews 10:14)
no works righteousness
no proving oneself worthy
no ladder steps
As a result of what Jesus did for us, we have joy, confidence, and assurance that we are completely worthy and freely forgiven right now.
Let me explain what's going through my head here. I believe that Jesus Christ personally suffered to redeem me, and to make it possible for me to stand before God without sin. Of course I have sinned at times in my life. I've never committed any really grievous sins, but I am far from perfect. But it occurred to me that, even though Christ's suffering is finished, it was very real and, though beyond my own comprehension, very quantifiable in His eyes and in His Father's eyes. He took upon himself the guilt for every sin that would ever be committed. In other words, He had to pay the price for every sin I have committed and every sin anyone of us will commit in the future. I can't really do anything about the sins I've committed in the past, other than repent of them and be thankful that I will be forgiven of them. But it makes me want so much to live in such a way that the least amount of His suffering possible will be because of me. I find myself thinking that by the time He comes again and we all stand before God to be judged, the sum total of His suffering could actually be distributed to all those who He suffered for -- proportionately, based on each person's actual sins. It's just so easy to think, "Well, His suffering is over, and if I repent and accept Him as my Savior, I don't have anything to worry about." That's what I don't want to find myself guilty of doing.
I don't know if I'm making sense to anybody or not. It's just something I've been mulling over in my head.
Let me explain what's going through my head here. I believe that Jesus Christ personally suffered to redeem me, and to make it possible for me to stand before God without sin. Of course I have sinned at times in my life. I've never committed any really grievous sins, but I am far from perfect. But it occurred to me that, even though Christ's suffering is finished, it was very real and, though beyond my own comprehension, very quantifiable in His eyes and in His Father's eyes. He took upon himself the guilt for every sin that would ever be committed. In other words, He had to pay the price for every sin I have committed and every sin anyone of us will commit in the future. I can't really do anything about the sins I've committed in the past, other than repent of them and be thankful that I will be forgiven of them. But it makes me want so much to live in such a way that the least amount of His suffering possible will be because of me. I find myself thinking that by the time He comes again and we all stand before God to be judged, the sum total of His suffering could actually be distributed to all those who He suffered for -- proportionately, based on each person's actual sins. It's just so easy to think, "Well, His suffering is over, and if I repent and accept Him as my Savior, I don't have anything to worry about." That's what I don't want to find myself guilty of doing.
I don't know if I'm making sense to anybody or not. It's just something I've been mulling over in my head.
Yes ... I know exactly what you mean when you say:
But it makes me want so much to live in such a way that the least amount of His suffering
possible will be because of me. I find myself thinking that by the time He comes again and we
all stand before God to be judged, the sum total of His suffering could actually be distributed
to all those who He suffered for -- proportionately, based on each person's actual sins. It's
just so easy to think, "Well, His suffering is over, and if I repent and accept Him as my Savior,
I don't have anything to worry about."
A LDS prophet said it this way concerning forgiveness:
Taken from -The Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball
“Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the
requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works – many
works – and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and a ‘broken heart and contrite spirit’.
It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it
could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has
forgiven you. Thatdepends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.”
which that is base that on 2 Nephi 25:23
" ... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
Let me explain what's going through my head here. I believe that Jesus Christ personally suffered to redeem me, and to make it possible for me to stand before God without sin. Of course I have sinned at times in my life. I've never committed any really grievous sins, but I am far from perfect. But it occurred to me that, even though Christ's suffering is finished, it was very real and, though beyond my own comprehension, very quantifiable in His eyes and in His Father's eyes. He took upon himself the guilt for every sin that would ever be committed. In other words, He had to pay the price for every sin I have committed and every sin anyone of us will commit in the future. I can't really do anything about the sins I've committed in the past, other than repent of them and be thankful that I will be forgiven of them. But it makes me want so much to live in such a way that the least amount of His suffering possible will be because of me. I find myself thinking that by the time He comes again and we all stand before God to be judged, the sum total of His suffering could actually be distributed to all those who He suffered for -- proportionately, based on each person's actual sins. It's just so easy to think, "Well, His suffering is over, and if I repent and accept Him as my Savior, I don't have anything to worry about." That's what I don't want to find myself guilty of doing.
I don't know if I'm making sense to anybody or not. It's just something I've been mulling over in my head.
My belief is that the amount of pain the Jesus suffered has little or nothing to do with the amount of sin in the world. We, as humans tend to think in a quantitative way on this subject, but I don't believe that it is a correct view. We tend to think that Jesus had to suffer an amount equal to what we have sinned. But actually, the payment for the sin of the world was not quantitative, but qualitative.
Adam's sin gave us mortality, and we all sin because we are not perfect. We inherited this imperfection. Just like if we have sinned once, we are guilty. And since we all sin, all are guilty.
The payment for the loss of a life of perfection is another life of perfection, not a degree of suffering. Granted, Jesus' death was horrendous, but many people have died a more horrendous death. There are many stories out there of that. And I don't believe that Jesus spent any time on the cross thinking of all the individual sins committed up to that time, and into the future, because He knew that it was the sacrifice of a perfect life that God required.
Here's how it works: God lost a perfect man, and in return, the payment to God is a perfect man. The set-up of God's judicial sentencing shows us that the basis of judgment is repayment. If someone steals, he was required to pay back what he stole with interest. If he couldn't repay the debt, he was sold to someone that would repay it for him, and then he had to work it off to the guy that paid the debt. This not only pays the debt back, but teaches rehabilitation. In the case of murder, (and a few other things), the offender had to pay with his life, not because it repaid anyone for a lost life, but because the offender was sent to a higher court that could deal with the offence. In essence, he was sentenced to death in order to send him before God's final judgment, and only God knows what the final sentence would be, but it has to be along the lines of repayment, retribution, and rehabilitation. I believe that we, today, are so used to our judicial system that we think it is how God works. We send people to prison for a crime, and the offended person is not repaid, and rarely is the criminal rehabilitated, plus the society picks up the tab for the prison stay, and then a criminal learns how to be a better criminal and is released to do it all over again, because he is never actually 'forgiven', but is marked for life as a felon. Now a days, we don't actually believe that a person can be rehabbed, but in olden times, they were rehabbed and forgiven. We punish and think, "out of sight, out of mind", and we think that this is how God works.
So Jesus had a life that was infinitely valuable, because it was perfect. And God accepted His death, not because of the amount of suffering Jesus endured, but because Jesus' death allowed God to raise Him from the dead, which is actually God giving a new life to the first person ever into a new state of perfection in resurrection. In this way, God regained not only the life of Adam, but it opened the pathway and example for all of us to follow into resurrection, therefore giving us all the way to regain the life that we would have had if Adam and all of us would NOT have sinned, but with even more! On top of all of that, we not only have the path to perfection opened up to us, but through it all, we are given the ability to grow in maturity, so that God will not only regain that which was lost, but regain perfection AND maturity so that the new creation is not just perfect, but fully mature, something that Adam alone could not have attained.
(Sorry that this kind of rambles, but it is hard to explain in just a sentence or two.)
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