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I know you don't believe in NDEs but I will humor you anyway. Hell is a state of mind - 'as a man thinketh so is he'. That is why fundamental christians are more prone to experience the hellfire and brimstone hell more so than others.
When people experience 'hell' after they die , for some, their hell is remorse. Many feel the pain that they caused others. I read of one ladies NDE who admitted being a real b*tch in life and when she had her life review , she said if there were a hellfire that she could have jumped into , she would have. She would have preferred the physical pain over what she was feeling.
The only argument I can make in defense of NDEs is that if they are NOT real, then there is another phenomenon going on, people experiencing the same things. If these are all fabricated/hallucinations, how can people share the same experiences? It would be like you and me having the same dream. Sorry, that doesn't happen. We might have a dream that is similar, but not the same dream.
I myself need no convincing about about their reality, I have read hundreds upon hundreds of cases. It was the stepping stone that lead me to come to believe in UR. I just asked myself, why is it for all of the negative NDEs, whenever anyone cried out to God, He came and rescued them (one study showed about 17% NDEs are 'hellish').
Better off examining yourself now and repenting than facing God naked and ashamed.
You have studied NDE's and have come to the right conclusion, that they are real. A person that is dead, lets say more than 20 minites without oxygen in the brain, how can this body recover? How can this people know what happened during they were unconcious, there are cases after death where they went to their family and could tell them what happened when they where mourning or even visiting other places. This are not dreams or hallucinations, who says it, has not studied or does not believe the reports. And you are right, they are simelar. But they are not only real, they go to real spiritual places, at least they are in the spiritual world, have left their body, which is dead, but they are full concious, see their lives and know what they have done wrong. The people that go to hell, this is a real spiritual place, know why they went there. If God shows this place to Christians, because they have to know, if they do not repent of their sins, they will be in hell. Which church preached that? You got it right, repentance is the way to Heaven, we have to be washed in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 12:11). But NDE's are not the afterlife, they are a second chance God gives people to get saved. This has to be in this life, therefore God brings them back, that they can repent. My friend died as an unbeliever (he was in sin) and found himself in hell. He asked God if He had not a better place for him. He was back in hospital, had 42 fiver and the doctors saved his life. He became a believer. There was no such thing of hell in his mind. Even Atheist go there. NDE's are like visions, they are spiritual to be interpreted, the carnal mind cannot understand them. They are not replacing God's word. Be careful.
It is because you do not understand the spiritual world, they do not have a body like ours.
You have not even shown there IS a spiritual world..... yet you can pretend that you understand it and other people do not? Come off it.
You have no more idea what you are talking about then anyone else has here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur
You have studied NDE's and have come to the right conclusion, that they are real.
No one on this thread, or that I have ever met, denies that they are real. We just deny there is any reason to think they are what YOU think they are.
But that they exist, and people have such experiences, is not in doubt here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur
How can this people know what happened during they were unconcious, there are cases after death where they went to their family and could tell them what happened when they where mourning or even visiting other places.
Anecdotal cases or actually documented ones? Because for some reason you people only EVER give unverifiable anecdotes.
However when someone installs a double blind system for checking such informations.... it fails every time. No one seems to be magically getting information they otherwise could not have had.
However when someone installs a double blind system for checking such informations.... it fails every time. No one seems to be magically getting information they otherwise could not have had.
There was a wonderful one started some time ago, the results of which are meant to be out and available now but I have only been able to find excerpts.
It was run by a man called Sam Parnia who is a biased source towards there being a supernatural explanation for NDE. So if he finds positive results we would need to look at them carefully due to his bias, but with an open mind.
As far as I understand from previews and excepts, he studied the phenomenon of patients leaving their body and floating over or outside the room. Such patients are said to come into information they otherwise should not or could not have.
So his double blind approach was to have a third party leave objects where only such people would see them. Not just boring objects but objects so incongruent to the environment that you simply could not miss them.
He himself did not know what the objects were, or in which operating rooms in which hospitals they were. He simply knew they were out there. That is where the "double blind" part of the study comes in. There is no way he can interview people claiming OBE and influence their answers.
So he compiled a LOT of interviews with OBE patients, including their descriptions of the rooms they found themselves in while "out of body". He then obtained the information on what objects were left where and compared them to the interviews.
Not. One. Positive. Result.
Had he even received _one_ positive result like "I was floating over my body and did you know there is a large flashing digital readout over there with the number 565 in huge red numbers?" or "I was floating up there and.... I know you will think this mad.... but there is an artificial tree stuck to the top of that cupboard there that is made up of.... you will laugh.... pink dildos" I would sit up and take notice and say "Wow, there really is something going on here!"
But to my knowledge (which is limited but more extensive than most people discussing OBE and NDE and so forth) no actual double blind study of this form has EVER returned a positive result. Instead we get unverifiable anecdote, hearsay and third hand reports. And NDE proponents wonder why I remain unconvinced and simply put it down to having a bias, agenda or the old favorite: "a closed mind".
There was a wonderful one started some time ago, the results of which are meant to be out and available now but I have only been able to find excerpts.
It was run by a man called Sam Parnia who is a biased source towards there being a supernatural explanation for NDE. So if he finds positive results we would need to look at them carefully due to his bias, but with an open mind.
As far as I understand from previews and excepts, he studied the phenomenon of patients leaving their body and floating over or outside the room. Such patients are said to come into information they otherwise should not or could not have.
So his double blind approach was to have a third party leave objects where only such people would see them. Not just boring objects but objects so incongruent to the environment that you simply could not miss them.
He himself did not know what the objects were, or in which operating rooms in which hospitals they were. He simply knew they were out there. That is where the "double blind" part of the study comes in. There is no way he can interview people claiming OBE and influence their answers.
So he compiled a LOT of interviews with OBE patients, including their descriptions of the rooms they found themselves in while "out of body". He then obtained the information on what objects were left where and compared them to the interviews.
Not. One. Positive. Result.
Had he even received _one_ positive result like "I was floating over my body and did you know there is a large flashing digital readout over there with the number 565 in huge red numbers?" or "I was floating up there and.... I know you will think this mad.... but there is an artificial tree stuck to the top of that cupboard there that is made up of.... you will laugh.... pink dildos" I would sit up and take notice and say "Wow, there really is something going on here!"
But to my knowledge (which is limited but more extensive than most people discussing OBE and NDE and so forth) no actual double blind study of this form has EVER returned a positive result. Instead we get unverifiable anecdote, hearsay and third hand reports. And NDE proponents wonder why I remain unconvinced and simply put it down to having a bias, agenda or the old favorite: "a closed mind".
No you would just say, oh that guy is biased. You can't trust his results. But if the results are what you want, you accept them without question.
If you really wanted evidence, it's easily out there. Just go to any hospital and interview hospice nurses. You will find many nurses who have witnessed supernatural events at the time of a patient's death.
how do you explain when someone has a NDE and has their eyes closed and can describe in minute detail what was going on in the operating room and elsewhere, that could ONLY be seen by someone with their eyes open? THATS what I want to know.
I have a theory - could it be that your soul - if it happens to be in a certain kind of experience - can leave the body - and this is what is actually traveling around (this is your true self). This would mean that even an atheist has this, because it is your soul, your spirit, or you might call it your personality, it is not necessarily a religious meaning.
how do you explain when someone has a NDE and has their eyes closed and can describe in minute detail what was going on in the operating room and elsewhere, that could ONLY be seen by someone with their eyes open? THATS what I want to know.
I have a theory - could it be that your soul - if it happens to be in a certain kind of experience - can leave the body - and this is what is actually traveling around (this is your true self). This would mean that even an atheist has this, because it is your soul, your spirit, or you might call it your personality, it is not necessarily a religious meaning.
Every human has a soul and a spirit, that lives in a house we call body, which is made out of materie, the bible calls it dust. God made this body and breathed life into it and Adam became a living soul. I do not believe that the soul is made out of dust, but is spiritual as the spirit is. This soul and spirit can leave the body, but not with natural power, only with supernatural power, that means with the help of God or with the help of Satan. Two people have witnessed to me that after taking drugs they went out of their body and had an spiritual expirience. The Apostle Paul said that he visited Heaven not knowing in the body or out of the body. When I fasted, the Lord showed me a witch, that came into my room from aother country and continent and found me not even knowing my address. She stood in the air and looked exactly as I knew her before. I shoot her out of the air, commanding to leave me in the name of Jesus. I worked with her and did not know that she made witchcraft. So long there is a lifeline a person does not die when he leaves the body. But at death this lifeline is cut and I think only God the creator can restore and bring the dead body back to life, the bible calls it resurrection from the dead. There are two different resurrections. One into the same body we have now (Lazarus) and the resurrection according to 1. Cor 15, where the believers in Christ get a glorified body. All the other dead are resurrected at the end of the millennium. We have to be careful witrh NDE's, because Satan can come as an angel of light and as he showed Jesus his kingdoms, he can try to deceive people still today. Therefore the bible is our truth, we have to judge accordingly and to remain in Jesus, that is our protection against the arrows of Satan.
You have not even shown there IS a spiritual world..... yet you can pretend that you understand it and other people do not? Come off it.
You have no more idea what you are talking about then anyone else has here.
No one on this thread, or that I have ever met, denies that they are real. We just deny there is any reason to think they are what YOU think they are.
But that they exist, and people have such experiences, is not in doubt here.
Anecdotal cases or actually documented ones? Because for some reason you people only EVER give unverifiable anecdotes.
However when someone installs a double blind system for checking such informations.... it fails every time. No one seems to be magically getting information they otherwise could not have had.
But by all means, cite your examples.
You have to look for yourselves or others have to give you, I am not wasting my time. If you do not believe the bible, you will not believe, if someone comes back from the dead, that is true, you are a witness.
For someone who claims not to be replying to me anymore, you sure find a lot of ways to do so! Perhaps when you said "I will not be replying to you again" you actually mean "I will reply to you as and when it suits me to do so, but in general I will be dodging and retreating from your posts"?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
No you would just say, oh that guy is biased.
No I would not. But your need to make up things about me that are false never seems to come to an end does it?
I made very clear in my post what I think of his bias. You simply ignored that in favor of your own fantastical misrepresentations of me.
As I said: His bias means that I would be especially diligent in evaluating his evidence and claims. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Anything else is just your desperate need to straw man me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If you really wanted evidence, it's easily out there.
Great. You should have NO trouble giving us some then. Go for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoMeO
how do you explain when someone has a NDE and has their eyes closed and can describe in minute detail what was going on in the operating room and elsewhere, that could ONLY be seen by someone with their eyes open? THATS what I want to know.
You would first have to establish THAT this actually happened, before asking anyone to explain it.
This is a big issue in the discussion of not just NDE but Reincarnation and other woo claims. What we get is "You can not explain X therefore Y" type arguments. But they are not arguments at all. If you can not explain something then this is NOT evidence for some explanation someone has simply made up.
As I said above, there are many claims of "This patient could not possibly have seen X" all the time, with no evidence that they could not have. But when someone implements a controlled double blind study what happens? ZILCH. Not a single verified case of someone seeing something they should not or could not have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoMeO
I have a theory - could it be that your soul - if it happens to be in a certain kind of experience - can leave the body
At this time we do not just have very little.... but absolutely no..... evidence that human subjectivity, experience or consciousness can exist independently of the brain in any way, form or fashion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur
You have to look for yourselves or others have to give you
And yet.... having engaged HEAVILY in both.... I still appear to have found nothing. But that does not stop you and your cohort playing the "Keep looking" canard I guess.
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