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In Isaiah 61, ‘you’ refers to the Jews returning from the Babylonian Exile. “They’ refers to the Jewish people as a whole. It is a lot clearer in the NIV translation.
Isaiah 61:7-9 NIV
7 Instead of your shame
you will receive a double portion,
and instead of disgrace
you will rejoice in your inheritance.
And so you will inherit a double portion in your land,
and everlasting joy will be yours.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery and wrongdoing.
In my faithfulness I will reward my people
and make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 Their descendants will be known among the nations
and their offspring among the peoples.
All who see them will acknowledge
that they are a people the LORD has blessed.”
It sounds like maybe the problem is in the KJV translation.
Lets look at them one verse at a time.
Isaiah 61:7-9 NIV
7 Instead of your shame
you will receive a double portion,
and instead of disgrace you will rejoice in your inheritance.
DD instead of your shame (you will receive ) double, and instead of dishonor they will rejoice in YOUR lot.
The bolded and underlined word shows a difference, from you to they.
NIV
And so you will inherit a double portion in your land,
and everlasting joy will be yours.
DD therefore YOU will inherit a double portion in their land, and everlasting joy will be YOURS.
Whose land? Is it your land or their land?
NIV
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery and wrongdoing.
In my faithfulness I will reward my people
and make an everlasting covenant with them.
DD For I love justice and I hate robbery and iniquity; I will faithfully give YOU your reward and make an everlasting covenant with YOU.
According to your understanding, that you refers to the returning Jews and they refers to the Jewish people as a whole, then only the Jews returning from Babylon receive a reward and God only makes an everlasting covenant with those Jews returning from Babylon.
Would not that change the understanding of who God makes an everlasting covenant with? From the Jewish nation as a whole to just those who returned from Babylon?
NIV
9 Their descendants will be known among the nations
and their offspring among the peoples.
DD YOUR descendant will be known among the nations and YOUR offspring among the people......
No matter how you look at those scriptures, even in your scenario, a change in doctrine takes place, in your scenario it is from a covenant with all Jewish people to just a covenant with those who returned from Babylon.
The NIV version of Deuteronomy 8:6 agrees with the DSS.
Deut 8:6 Observe the commands of the LORD your God, walking in obedience to him and revering him.
DSS And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, by walking in all His ways and by LOVING Him.
They do not agree. The word fear and the word love do NOT mean the same thing. What you are doing is taking the variant found in both manuscripts and saying they mean the same thing. This is the same practise that the fundy's do, instead of dealing with the variant they try to make the variant say the same thing.
Revering (having deep admiration and respect) for God and loving God do not mean the same thing. We can have deep admiration and respect for someone without loving them.
I believe Daniel has stated repeatedly that he does, in fact, believe the Bible. He may not interpret it the same way you do, but your statement that he does not believe the Bible amounts to your bearing false witness against him. You are hardly in a position to be able to accurately state what someone else believes or does not believe.
People always do that kat, if you don't agree with their understanding of the bible then of course you don't agree with the bible, it's utter nonesense.
No, I didn't use Google. Again, Psalm 45:6 refers to the Messianic king - to Jesus. As does Psalm 102:25-27. It was the pre-incarnate Jesus who founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of His hands. This fact is established not only in Hebrews 1:10, but in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-17.
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Eek gad mike, if Jesus is God and that scripture is refering to Jesus, then God has a God.
Jesus said I go to my Father and your Father, my God and your God, it is obvious to everyone reading but you that Jesus cannot be God or God has a God above him.
Paul says their are many gods, but to US their is only ONE God. Paul is not saying there are no other Gods, Paul is saying to US their is only ONE God. Paul knew there where other gods, because the nation surrounding him worshiped MANY gods.
Eek gad mike, if Jesus is God and that scripture is refering to Jesus, then God has a God.
Jesus said I go to my Father and your Father, my God and your God, it is obvious to everyone reading but you that Jesus cannot be God or God has a God above him.
Paul says their are many gods, but to US their is only ONE God. Paul is not saying there are no other Gods, Paul is saying to US their is only ONE God. Paul knew there where other gods, because the nation surrounding him worshiped MANY gods.
this is correct, nor is the apostle Paul is saying the Lord Jesus have a God, nor the Spirit/God, have a God, and neither is the apostle is saying that there is a second person in any trinity. no, the simple answer to Psalms 45:6 and Hebrews 8:1 is the Share, or the G243 Allos of God, is in flesh. our Lord Jesus, God in flesh, as a man, is the Allos with God, meaning the Spirit SHARE, hence "EQUAL", and not co-equal. and being EQUAL, SHARE the SAME "NATURE", or is the same "SORT". and the scriptures are speaking second person, because he is the G243 Allos with the Spirit, in flesh and bones. the Scripture in Psalms 45:6 shows this sharing of the Spirit as the "thy", or "yours" , as the second person which is the "possessive pronoun". this can be prove out by studying the pronoun chart here at English personal pronouns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia by studying this chat, and understanding the term G243 allos, then one can understand why there is "NOT" a second person, or a second God over another God. that is sheer ignorance.
there is one God only. if any one have any concern about that, just explain Romans 8:9 and tell us if there are two Spirit, which is God.
Eek gad mike, if Jesus is God and that scripture is refering to Jesus, then God has a God.
Jesus said I go to my Father and your Father, my God and your God, it is obvious to everyone reading but you that Jesus cannot be God or God has a God above him.
Paul says their are many gods, but to US their is only ONE God. Paul is not saying there are no other Gods, Paul is saying to US their is only ONE God. Paul knew there where other gods, because the nation surrounding him worshiped MANY gods.
Scripture clearly states that Jesus is God. It also clearly states that Jesus is man. This goes to the doctrine of the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ. As a man Jesus referred to the Father as His God. As God, Jesus is co-equal with the Father and with the Holy Spirit.
As I've stated previously, the Scriptures refer to gods. But these 'gods' are false gods; idols.
Psalm 96:5 For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the LORD made the heavens.
Men in authority - judges were also referred to as gods. And the title may be used regarding angelic beings. But there is only one true God and that is the triune God. Scripture has already been given which shows that it was the pre-incarnate Jesus who made all things and that it is through Him all things hold together. Yes, Jesus is God. The second Person of the Trinity. He is the agent of creation of the heavens and the earth (Hebrews 1:10, John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-17).
The LORD (YHWH) made the heavens (Psalm 96:5). The pre-incarnate Jesus made the heavens (Hebrews 1:10, John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-17).
You either believe those Scriptures or you don't.
Jesus is God, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. Since His incarnation Jesus is also true humanity.
Scripture clearly states that Jesus is God. It also clearly states that Jesus is man. This goes to the doctrine of the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ. As a man Jesus referred to the Father as His God. As God, Jesus is co-equal with the Father and with the Holy Spirit.
As I've stated previously, the Scriptures refer to gods. But these 'gods' are false gods; idols.
Psalm 96:5 For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the LORD made the heavens.
Men in authority - judges were also referred to as gods. And the title may be used regarding angelic beings. But there is only one true God and that is the triune God. Scripture has already been given which shows that it was the pre-incarnate Jesus who made all things and that it is through Him all things hold together. Yes, Jesus is God. The second Person of the Trinity. He is the agent of creation of the heavens and the earth (Hebrews 1:10, John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-17).
The LORD (YHWH) made the heavens (Psalm 96:5). The pre-incarnate Jesus made the heavens (Hebrews 1:10, John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-17).
You either believe those Scriptures or you don't.
Jesus is God, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. Since His incarnation Jesus is also true humanity.
Pslam 96:5 already refuted by McClellan because you are using an aberrant textual variation and not reading in the Greek or Hebrew.
Quote:
No, Ps 96:4-5 says all the gods of the nations are worthless. The word used there is אלילים, which means "worthless," and is a play on words with the Hebrew for "god," אלהים. This rhetoric mirrors the references in Deutero-Isaiah and elsewhere where the peoples of the nations and their forces are called "nothing," "less than nothing," "vanity," "worthless," etc.
This is a period when the gods of the nations are being denigrated in the interest of promoting the sole worship of YHWH. It's called the rhetoric of incomparability, and it has nothing to do with monotheism or the non-existence of other gods. Even Egyptian hymns of praise to Aten and Amun and others declare the deity to be the only one that exists, but the same authors then have texts praising other deities saying the exact same stuff. They do the same for Shamash and others in Assyria-Babylon.
Numerous Old Testament texts talk favorably of the gods of the nations. God is said to have established his children in their roles as the gods of the nations in the original version of Deut 32:8-9 (of which you're probably not even aware). Elsewhere the Israelites are commanded not to worship the gods of the nations for no other reason than that they are the gods of other nations, not their nation. That has nothing to do with denying their existence, it's all about the exclusive
relationship of Israel and YHWH. This is the point of Deuteronomy. It's a vassal treaty that mimics the contemporary treaties of Esarhaddon that command the vassals to love their master with all their efforts and to love no one else. On that, see Nathan MacDonald, Deuteronomy and the Meaning of Monotheism
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Daniel McClellan Post#149
You either believe the original text or you select a variation or improper translation on which to build your religion. McClellan's point that "worthless" and "god" are a play on words in the original is quite potent. I have been reading through the minor prophets and they frequently use play on words to get their point across. My e-version of the EST provides the footnotes for those play on words.
Nowhere does scripture ever say Jesus is God. The closest you have is Thomas referring to him as his god. This is not an identification with YHWH in any sense whatsoever, and Jesus himself refers to his disciples' God as his own God. That's not a distinction in person within one being, but a distinction in being.
The simple fact is that no human being in the history of our race has ever read the Bible free from outside influence and arrived at the doctrine of the Trinity. It has nothing to do with the Bible. The only reason it exists is because authorities demand it. Without dogmatism, no one would have ever arrived at the Trinity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
It also clearly states that Jesus is man. This goes to the doctrine of the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ.
And here's the problem with that: when the evidence could be interpreted multiple ways, and one of those ways is a logical impossibility, why do you reject the logical interpretations and accept the logically impossible one? Because you're forced to by ecclesiastical authority. That's the only possible explanation. There is no other reason to reject the logical and accept the impossible. You can try to justify it, but you'll be forced to arbitrarily assert non-biblical principles and philosophical constructs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
As a man Jesus referred to the Father as His God. As God, Jesus is co-equal with the Father and with the Holy Spirit.
This would mean the Father exists as a separate being from Jesus. That's not the Trinity. Oh, right. I forgot. The Hypostatic Union is a logical impossibility, but we have to accept it just because.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
As I've stated previously, the Scriptures refer to gods. But these 'gods' are false gods; idols.
Psalm 96:5 For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the LORD made the heavens.
And as I explained, the word isn't "idols," but "worthless," and it's a bit of rhetoric that no more denies the actuality and efficacy of the other gods than Isaiah denies the existence of the other nations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Men in authority - judges were also referred to as gods.
They absolutely were not. You can see the discussion on this in a segment from one of my master's theses here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And the title may be used regarding angelic beings.
Because angels were gods. They were lower-tier gods, but gods nonetheless. I discuss the conflation of the two main lower tiers here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
But there is only one true God and that is the triune God. Scripture has already been given which shows that it was the pre-incarnate Jesus who made all things and that it is through Him all things hold together.
And scripture has also been given that shows Jesus was one of the creations of God. I've also explained that saying both Jesus and God created the universe in no way whatsoever identifies Jesus as God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Yes, Jesus is God.
This was never imagined until after the Bible had been written.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The second Person of the Trinity. He is the agent of creation of the heavens and the earth (Hebrews 1:10, John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-17).
The LORD (YHWH) made the heavens (Psalm 96:5). The pre-incarnate Jesus made the heavens (Hebrews 1:10, John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-17).
You either believe those Scriptures or you don't.
And you don't. What you believe is a post-biblical dogma that only exists because church authorities forced it to exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus is God, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. Since His incarnation Jesus is also true humanity.
Nowhere does scripture ever say Jesus is God. The closest you have is Thomas referring to him as his god. This is not an identification with YHWH in any sense whatsoever, and Jesus himself refers to his disciples' God as his own God. That's not a distinction in person within one being, but a distinction in being.
The simple fact is that no human being in the history of our race has ever read the Bible free from outside influence and arrived at the doctrine of the Trinity. It has nothing to do with the Bible. The only reason it exists is because authorities demand it. Without dogmatism, no one would have ever arrived at the Trinity.
And here's the problem with that: when the evidence could be interpreted multiple ways, and one of those ways is a logical impossibility, why do you reject the logical interpretations and accept the logically impossible one? Because you're forced to by ecclesiastical authority. That's the only possible explanation. There is no other reason to reject the logical and accept the impossible. You can try to justify it, but you'll be forced to arbitrarily assert non-biblical principles and philosophical constructs.
This would mean the Father exists as a separate being from Jesus. That's not the Trinity. Oh, right. I forgot. The Hypostatic Union is a logical impossibility, but we have to accept it just because.
And as I explained, the word isn't "idols," but "worthless," and it's a bit of rhetoric that no more denies the actuality and efficacy of the other gods than Isaiah denies the existence of the other nations.
They absolutely were not. You can see the discussion on this in a segment from one of my master's theses here.
Because angels were gods. They were lower-tier gods, but gods nonetheless. I discuss the conflation of the two main lower tiers here.
And scripture has also been given that shows Jesus was one of the creations of God. I've also explained that saying both Jesus and God created the universe in no way whatsoever identifies Jesus as God.
This was never imagined until after the Bible had been written.
And you don't. What you believe is a post-biblical dogma that only exists because church authorities forced it to exist.
Apparently you consider the New Testament to be post-Biblical. That Jesus is God is affirmed in John 1:1, Phil 2:6. And by comparing passages such as Hebrews 1:10-12 with Psalm 102:25-27. It was God who created the heavens and the earth and it is specifically stated in passages such as John 1:3, Col. 1:16, Hebrews 1:10-12 that it was Jesus who created the heavens and the earth.
God created the heavens and the earth. The pre-incarnate Jesus created the heavens and the earth. Jesus Christ is God, the Second Person of the Trinity.
There is only one true God who is God not by name or title or office only, but who by nature is the One who is uncreated and who brought into existence all that exists. The humanity of Jesus had a beginning. As God, Jesus has eternally existed along with the Father.
Your arguments fail and are nonsense.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-26-2014 at 03:08 PM..
Apparently you consider the New Testament to be post-Biblical. That Jesus is God is affirmed in John 1:1, Phil 2:6. And by comparing passages such as Hebrews 1:10-12 with Psalm 102:25-27. It was God who created the heavens and the earth and it is specifically stated in passages such as John 1:3, Col. 1:16, Hebrews 1:10-12 that it was Jesus who created the heavens and the earth.
God created the heavens and the earth. The pre-incarnate Jesus created the heavens and the earth. Jesus Christ is God, the Second Person of the Trinity.
There is only one true God who is God not by name or title or office only, but who by nature is the One who is uncreated and who brought into existence all that exists. The humanity of Jesus had a beginning. As God, Jesus has eternally existed along with the Father.
Your arguments fail and are nonsense.
Actually it appears that the textual variants matter very, very much, as you are constantly accepting the later, revised ones.
The pre-incarnate Jesus created the heavens and the earth. Jesus Christ is God, the Second Person of the Trinity.
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the bible said that God created the heaven and the earth, alone, see Isaiah 44:24. and Isaiah 42:5 and this same God is the REDEEMER, and Jesus the Christ is that same REDEEMER. there is not two creators, nor two REDEEMERS, it must be the same PERSON. "ONE".
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