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So many people came to this country to have religious FREEDOM. I hope the secularist don't rule the day with their secular religions. They have a religion even if they refuse to see it.
This is a complete twisting around of the Constitution. Sorry.
Look, I know you guys desperately want to be able to conduct prayers in school and the whatnot, but the Founding Fathers were rather suspicious of those efforts. Not that they weren't religious men, but because they had seen what happens when some well-meaning people get their hands on the levers of power.
Do yourselves a favor. Read the Federalist Papers, which provides a very deep dive into the guiding philosophy of the Constitution's authors. Even better, look for the words Jesus, Christ, Jew, Christian, or God (In the Judeo-Christian sense of the word) in the text. You won't find them. They simply aren't there. The word "Christianity" pops up once, but only as a reference to the early history of Germany. If the Founding Fathers had intended to create a Christian republic, if their intent was to make Americans into a Christian people, those are rather strange omissions don't you think?
Instead, it's a good idea to look at the guiding spirit of the nation's birth: The Enlightenment. You know the word "Creator", as used in the Declaration of Independence? Or the term, "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? Or "nature's god"? Those were bywords of the American Enlightenment, which preceded the Declaration of Independence by several decades. Those terms were not used lightly. Instead, they were used intentionally by people such as Jefferson.
And the chief influence on the Enlightenment was the religious upheavals of the 16th and 17th Century. The Reformation. The Thirty Years' War. Mind you, the Enlightenment thinkers were divided on the question of religious faith, but all were very mindful of the problems it posed in society when abused. In fact, I would point you to Article VI of the Constitution, which states that no religious test will be imposed on any candidate for office. This was anticipated by James Madison, the father of the Constitution, when he wrote the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom three years earlier. An outspoken Christian, he nevertheless worried about the corrosive effects its abuse of power can create.
Why was this wording necessary? Not to suppress religious belief, but rather because the prevailing religious opinion of the majority can quickly turn into imposing one's theology and religious practices on the minority. One doesn't have to be a student of American History to know how that can happen. After all, the disaster that was the Prohibition was based on the Fundamentalist view that alcohol per se is sinful, running roughshod over the beliefs of other Christian denominations in the process. Never mind that Christ and his disciples drank wine. The Blue Laws are another. And the list goes on and on.
School prayer is another one of those. Who writes the prayer? Do we have an ecumenical committee write the prayer? What theological concepts get introduced? How often do we do it? How do we deal with the religious objections of those Christians who take Matthew 6 seriously? Are we going to allow Muslim and Jewish prayers, too? Or let's look at the question of creationism. Creationism exists to serve the Fundamentalist viewpoint that every verse of the Bible is literally the word of God, tying classroom instruction to a highly sectarian viewpoint, despite a complete lack of any credible body of evidence. What few attempts to argue Creationism from a scientific standpoint fall flat. Why should my children be taught that in school?
Here's the deal. There is absolutely no serious movement in this country to suppress religious belief. What exists in this country is a movement to keep you from using a position of power to impose your religious beliefs on others.
In fact, one of the great ironies of this country's history is that the Baptists were founded by Roger Williams, a man who militantly opposed the intertwining of church and state. Williams fled for his life from the Massachusetts Bay Colony and founded Providence, Rhode Island, where the boundaries between church and state were strictly defined. Yet his spiritual descendants would be shocked to realize that Roger Williams believed strongly that the state should stay out of religious matters, concerning itself only with civil matters. Yet ask a Baptist today, and you're likely to get opposite views.
To me, one of the idiotic non-debates is whether to exclude the "under God" wording from the Pledge of Allegiance. Mind you, those two words were not in the original Pledge when it was introduced in 1892. In fact, the words "under God" weren't included until 1954. Does this mean that the intervening sixty-two years were ones of godlessness and depravity? Of course not. Yet dare to return the Pledge to its original form in order to be fair to those who take their First Amendment seriously, and a vocal minority get the vapors.
Yet Roger Williams was right. European countries have official state religions, whether it's the Anglican church in England or the Catholics in Italy or the Lutherans in Germany and Scandinavia. Despite that, the churches of Europe are largely empty. That's because Christianity, at its heart, is a subversive movement. When it become intertwined with the business of government, it becomes sullied in the process.
The Founding Fathers understood this. I wish people such as Scalia and his postulates would understand it, too.
And 9 of the 13 original states had official religions. They were NOT opposed to religion being practiced in the state. They just didn't want the FEDERAL government dictating it.
So individual states can establish a religion, prohibit the free exercise of any other religion, abridge freedom of speech and the press, prohibit peaceful assembly and petitioning for redress of grievance? They are all in the same sentence. First Amendment
If individual states can establish a particular religion, suppose the state you live in establishes Islam as the official religion and institutes Sharia Law?
Last edited by Alt Thinker; 10-03-2014 at 03:28 PM..
And 9 of the 13 original states had official religions. They were NOT opposed to religion being practiced in the state. They just didn't want the FEDERAL government dictating it.
That was also hundreds of years ago. I would hope that we've progressed as a society and a human race enough in that time to realize when religion can be a part of your personal life, and when real world issues and situations need true attention and action. Religions came about and were invented to unify people and to have common control over populations. We have other means today to realize those goals.
Freedom of Religion make the government not put restriction in the law prohibiting the freedom to have religion for all men , but they could have laws which inhibit all people equally in issues of offense , ................Like people who have home churches , means that other people cannot have any card games and assemble to see sports games and parties , or an unregulated business in their homes , as government pick of religion only is an offense against the freedom of religion ............ passing laws to make freedom from religion for everyone makes it abusive and puts restriction of people who attend religion ......Humanist who confess that they do not believe in God and make it an offense that religion exist is a belief system and will be considered a religion .............Free Masons who confess their belief through their organization is a form of religion .......Atheist who confess that they do not believe in God and confess to others if you believe in God that is your business is not a religion
As we have made abundantly clear in several previous threads, the passage of the 14th Amendment in 1868 made it clear that the provisions of the Constitution (and Amendments) applied to the states as well as to the federal government. Unless and until the 14th Amendment is repealed, the States will be forbidden from having State religions. Why do we have to keep reminding the same people of what the law of the land is?
Freedom of Religion make the government not put restriction in the law prohibiting the freedom to have religion for all men , but they could have laws which inhibit all people equally in issues of offense , ................Like people who have home churches , means that other people cannot have any card games and assemble to see sports games and parties , or an unregulated business in their homes , as government pick of religion only is an offense against the freedom of religion ............ passing laws to make freedom from religion for everyone makes it abusive and puts restriction of people who attend religion ......Humanist who confess that they do not believe in God and make it an offense that religion exist is a belief system and will be considered a religion .............Free Masons who confess their belief through their organization is a form of religion .......Atheist who confess that they do not believe in God and confess to others if you believe in God that is your business is not a religion
Freemasonry most assuredly is NOT a religion. Never has been. Never will be. It's not even possible.
As we have made abundantly clear in several previous threads, the passage of the 14th Amendment in 1868 made it clear that the provisions of the Constitution (and Amendments) applied to the states as well as to the federal government. Unless and until the 14th Amendment is repealed, the States will be forbidden from having State religions. Why do we have to keep reminding the same people of what the law of the land is?
Well, the point was that at the time of the drafting and passage of the original constitution and even the Bill of Rights there was room for inadequate enforcement of the principles being enshrined. The 14th Amendment was just one of the greatest steps in ensuring the appropriate enforcement of the principles. Unfortunately, we have some people who think that original failure to explore all the ramifications of the principles should be license to maintain or reinstate uneven enforcement.
The last thing you will have is freedom of religion once the government gets involved. Freedom of religion gives you the right to practice any religion you want to, it does not mean the government getting involved and making rules based on religious beliefs.
For those that think there should be no separation of church and state, would you be willing to vote for churches paying taxes? Would you want the government to tell your church that you have to stop preaching that homosexuality is a sin because that falls under discrimination? You can't want more religion in government, without having more government in religion, if that makes any sense, haha.
And 9 of the 13 original states had official religions. They were NOT opposed to religion being practiced in the state. They just didn't want the FEDERAL government dictating it.
Does that mean we should never evolve and make changes? There was a time slavery was legal and women could not vote either.
If atheism IS a religion, as you say, then Scalia's argument does not apply and the point is that the court could not favor any other religion, any form of theism, over atheism. Would you like to rethink your point?
Well the atheists and theists say they are not a religion so maybe they need to rethink their point. LOL
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