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....I've been attending another church on the side. It's a younger community and it just got started less than a year ago, and it already has 30-40 members. I like this new community better, as I felt like I was not getting spiritually satisfied at the previous Church above. I attend on occasion just to touch base with old friends but I do not consider it my "home" church. My question is what kind of Church is the one I was describing? It just confuses me because I can't wrap my head around it.
It is called "my former church."
If you are now "spiritually satisfied," as you say, just center yourself in that.
What you need to do in the current situation is back up and ask if a committed relationship of the same sex is actually in any way harmful to anybody without regard to societal pressures past or present. You just might be able to do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican
I follow God's values, not the values of Man.
I doubted that you would be able to. You are not following God's values, but the interpretation of men put down in a book that has been touted to you without justification as God's words. That book has Jesus giving us a "new commandment." Think about that.
Homosexuality and homosexual marriage are not okay, and acceptance of homosexuality is a symptom of national decadence and degeneracy. No pastor should ever endorse it. The pastor to which you refer is twisting the meaning of Galatians 3:28. He is in error.
Nonsense.
He is enlightened. Unlike those who adhere to the primitive bigotry of bronze age scribes.
First I should start off saying that I like my Pastor and he is a good man, however I often feel confused by many of the things he says and that quite frankly I am often at odds with some of his teachings. The core message of the church is one I agree with, saved by Grace, God loves all, the door is open to all. I'm fully in support of that, and I am completely comfortable with having gay people join our church and even serve in it, as long as they renounce their sin. We're all sinners in our own way, and none of us should judge another because they sin differently than we do.
What I do have an issue with however is a conversation that him and I had over gay marriage and homosexuality in general in the church. He stated that because Paul said "There is no male or female in Christ" and that homosexuality is okay because there's no such thing as same-sex attraction anymore since none of us are truly male or female in Christ. He also said that people are born gay and that it's not debatable, I pointed out that there is no such proof to support that claim and that there could be several environmental factors involved, but he snubbed his nose at it. I told him that I would welcome a homosexual to church as God loves them like he loves everyone else, but that I know what scripture says and I won't even begin to try and justify a sin. He then stated that there are things that the Bible says are wrong but we ignore completely, such as women not being able to speak in church or divorced people getting remarried. He then implied that we should do the same thing with homosexuality and gay marriage. The Pastor's daughter, who agrees with him, stated that people like her and her father are "forward" thinkers and we should accept it because it will be accepted by everyone sooner or later.
This church is rather small, and I doubt it will be around in the next 10 years. What they consider to be a "great success" in attendance is 18 people, which only happens for Potluck, on average we have about 12-13 members and they're all older. They do not have a church of their own, they rent one from a Methodist Church. They also do not meet on Sundays, they meet on Saturday evenings (it used to be Saturday morning but they thought they would attract more people this way). Moderator cut: Keep the politics OUT of this forum.
I've been attending another church on the side. It's a younger community and it just got started less than a year ago, and it already has 30-40 members. I like this new community better, as I felt like I was not getting spiritually satisfied at the previous Church above. I attend on occasion just to touch base with old friends but I do not consider it my "home" church. My question is what kind of Church is the one I was describing? It just confuses me because I can't wrap my head around it.
Regarding the blue - That there could be enough to move elsewhere. You need to have faith in your shepherd. More importantly - follow the Holy Spirit. You could be in error. If he is contradicting clear biblical principles... definitely a red flag. Speaking of red...
Regarding the red - He is definitely off in coming to that conclusion. Being one in Christ is not about accepting sinful behavior. Paul also wrote 1 Corinthians 6 that says homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now he is saying that to tell his audience not to act like them and not to do the things that they do because that's not who they are anymore.
Regarding the purple - Hard to say for sure. Just my two cents, everyone is born with a predisposition towards at least one particular sin... greed, lust, pride,... homosexual tendencies could be part of that.
I don't care if people are in a committed relationship with the same-sex, it's not my business and no, it doesn't effect me. I would welcome them to church just like everyone else. My issue however is that yes it IS a sin as it is mentioned in the Bible, just like adultery, theft, prostitution etc....are also all sins. I feel that my Pastor is trying to justify this sin by twisting scripture and saying that it's not a sin at all, which goes against both the Bible and Nature.
I follow God's values, not the values of Man.
While there's probably nothing in the bible that can necessarily be used to "endorse" homosexuality or gay marriages, there are potentially valid arguments that the bible isn't really mentioning todays type of committed gay relationships at all. Rather, its possible that the so-called "gay-bash" verses are referring to common cultic worship practices of sumarians in the old testament (considering the condemnation verses in Torah law are found in the the "rules of being a priest" section) and the desciptions of the activities in Romans 1 are are very similar to the cult practices of the cult of Cybelle and maybe the cult of Dionysis. It says God "gave them over" because they were worshiping animals statues and whatnot...How many of todays Gays are doing that do ya think?
Anyways, if this is the case and its not directly condemned as once thought, it could potentially be allowed under the second Greatest commandment. This is the a more liberal argument that I'm certain how biblically viable it truly is, but it is worth mentioning since it the entire issue of homosexuality is a major conudrum for Christianity especially considering what science has revealed about it more recently. I would recommend checking out that "gaychristian101" site and other sites like it sometime and see what the other side of the argument is because you dig in your heels too deeply into traditionalism because if it is wrong, it has been very deeply hurting and condemning people for no good reason for centuries.
Last edited by Jrhockney; 10-06-2014 at 06:54 PM..
I'm completely fine with an open-minded pastor, in fact I absolutely despise judgmental churches of all kinds. However there's being open-minded, and there's ignoring scripture and trying to twist the Bible to support agendas, and that's what I feel that he is doing.
Also Jesus never instructed to support those particular things. He simply commanded us to love each other but to still honor God and His Word, and God's Word does not allow gay marriage.
Odds are, unless eating pork, mixing dissimilar fabrics, and allowing women to speak in church is strictly prohibited, your church has already ignored certain aspects of scripture.
Just saying, your picking a sin that is a current political debate and you've chosen your side and think your church needs to prioritize it with things like murder and adultery, instead of placing it with pork and mixing cotton and wool, which is where plenty of churches put the homosexuality thing. And that's fine I guess, that's your business not mine. And if you don't like how your church ranks the gay sin, go to a church that ranks it as you see fit. If you don't want to go to a different church, then suck it up.
Or do what I did and stop going to church all together. Your call.
Odds are, unless eating pork, mixing dissimilar fabrics, and allowing women to speak in church is strictly prohibited, your church has already ignored certain aspects of scripture.
You mean the aspects of Scripture that don't apply? We aren't Old Testament Jews.
By definition, your church is liberal. That isn't always a bad thing mind you. The Protestant Reformation was a very liberal movement. Early Christianity was a very liberal sect within Judaism.
Liberal = Favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief, expression or lifestyle.
One must decide whether God does or does not have any expectations of us. If so, what are they? Does he expect us to repress sexually unnatural urges (urges to engage in sexual activities that have no reproductive capability) or does he not?
Personally, I love every gay person that ever lived with all my heart, but the Spirit tells me that their homosexual acts are an abomination to him. Note that it is not the person that is an abomination. It is the act. We live in a society that expects certain urges to be restrained. If you're 30 and you have a powerful mutual sexual attraction to a 13 year old girl going on, you are expected to find a way to stifle those urges -- and above all else not act on them. If you and your sister are extremely sexually attracted to each other, the same is true. You are expected to stifle those urges and ignore them. The same is true of some of the more pernicious sexual urges: beastiality, pedophilia, necrophilia, etc. Homosexuality was one of those many things you were expected to simply repress and ignore. The vast majority of all cultures expected this of people -- and Judeo-Christian religion always condemned homosexual acts as sinful. The Biblical record is pretty clear about condemning homosexuality. Now the LGBT rights movement has slowly turned all of that on its head. Increasingly, society shuns and shames anyone who still believes that homosexuality is wrong and sinful.
Each person must decide for themselves: Where does God stand on the matter?
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