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And the second question is one that I have always wanted to hear a Christian explain - why is that of all the sins that are possible for someone to commit, this particular "sin" almost always seems to be at the very top of your "OH MY GOD THAT'S AWFUL" list? What is it about homosexuality that invariably seems to send you guys into orbit? Because, I have to tell ya... there's something about that that seems kind of.. well... strange.
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Originally Posted by old_cold
You know damn well why.
It's almost always men that place such an emphasis on this and it's almost always that it's gay men that are the subject.
Lesbians are seldom mentioned except occasionally as a minor side remark.
They simply cannot stand the thought of male to male anal sex, most especially ideating themselves as the recipient.
Oh, I completely agree. I was just hoping that maybe this time, I could persuade a fundevangelist to actually answer the question. I didn't think the chances were very good, but I thought it was at least worth a shot.
But, both predictably and sadly, Jeff has completely ignored my post, and both of the questions I asked. I was hoping for better, but wasn't really expecting it. C'est la vie. Someone will have to bookmark this for the next time he says, "I answer every question and you guys always ignore mine."
Last edited by Mr. In-Between; 12-09-2014 at 09:53 PM..
But, both predictably and sadly, Jeff has completely ignored my post, and both of the questions I asked. I was hoping for better, but wasn't really expecting it. C'est la vie.
He's likely busy preparing for his Sunday sermon "How homosexuality will cause the collapse of free market capitalism".
Oh, I completely agree. I was just hoping that maybe this time, I could persuade a fundevangelist to actually answer the question. I didn't think the chances were very good, but I thought it was at least worth a shot.
But, both predictably and sadly, Jeff has completely ignored my post, and both of the questions I asked. I was hoping for better, but wasn't really expecting it. C'est la vie. Someone will have to bookmark this for the next time he says, "I answer every question and you guys always ignore mine."
I really didn't see a need to answer the question because the thread title alone explains why. Homosexuality is considered an abomination by God so bad that in the OT, the Bible says it destroyed nations and defiled the land. It is a great offense because it's pretty much the most extreme way you can take something that God designed, and turn it completely opposite. Yes, gluttony is a sin too, but at least gluttony doesn't go completely against God's design of human sexuality which is one of his greatest most pure gifts to humanity.
With that said, the main reason I am vocal about it and perhaps other "fundies" is because the gay agenda has constantly pushed and pushed trying to force every facet of society to accept it or else. And a line was crossed once religious organizations and businesses were forced to give into the demands of homosexuals. If people were promoting some other sin at that same level, I would be rallying against it as well.
I really didn't see a need to answer the question because the thread title alone explains why. Homosexuality is considered an abomination by God so bad that in the OT, the Bible says it destroyed nations and defiled the land. It is a great offense because it's pretty much the most extreme way you can take something that God designed, and turn it completely opposite. Yes, gluttony is a sin too, but at least gluttony doesn't go completely against God's design of human sexuality which is one of his greatest most pure gifts to humanity.
With that said, the main reason I am vocal about it and perhaps other "fundies" is because the gay agenda has constantly pushed and pushed trying to force every facet of society to accept it or else. And a line was crossed once religious organizations and businesses were forced to give into the demands of homosexuals. If people were promoting some other sin at that same level, I would be rallying against it as well.
Well at least you are now admitting to categorizing sin --- with numbers perhaps? Homosexuality is a ten where gluttony is only a five? And therefore gluttony doesn't deserve to have sermons preached about it?
Would you like to provide us with factual proof that the gay "agenda" has forced any "religious organization to accept them? Sorry, but a "for profit" business is not a religious organization. In the United States of America if you hold yourself out as a public business you don't have a right to discriminate against anyone. Over the decades varying groups have always wanted the right to treat some folks as dirt. Tough it has to frequently taken far too long, either the states through constitutional amendments or the Supreme Court through judgments has stated to those groups that it isn't going to happen.
You're living in the wrong country. There is a possibility that you could raise travel money from some of us who post on CD.
Your agenda, and the agenda of all religious gay bashers is quite clear. You wish to isolate people who are homosexual or keep them in the closet so your devil created sensibilities aren't offended. You would fit in well in several middle eastern countries. Just don't mention Jesus. When you mention Him here it is more like Mohammed anyway.
Isolating people is evil.
Theologian and pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was hanged by the Nazis just a couple of weeks before the end of the war once told his students in the underground resistance seminary, "Evil demands to have a man by himself. It withdraws him from the community. The more isolated a person is, the more destructive the power of evil will be over him, the more disastrous his isolation----Evil shuns the light. In the darkness of the unexpressed it poisons the whole being of a person. This can happen even in the midst of a pious community."
By isolating homosexuals, by filling them with fear to be who they are, by dehumanizing them, by demanding to have a "right" to refuse them services offered by businesses, by refusing them the right to marry and receive health care from their spouse's insurance, by remaining silent when they are beaten or killed, by making their so-called sin greater than your own, you have negated the cross of Christ and sold out to the Evil One. More than one homosexual on this very thread has spoken of how they have been driven away from church by the drivel espoused by fundamentalists. For all of this, there is a millstone about your neck. And guess what, your beliefs, as I've shown before, is driving people from evangelical churches! At least there is that bit of good from these sick beliefs.
The handwriting is on your wall. Your best and perhaps only hope is to father a gay child. Even Dick Cheney, opposed to every other kind of social issue, knew and knows that homosexuals are people--not agendas. And the only reason he arrived at that viewpoint was because he has a lesbian daughter.
If you don't someday have a gay child, I fear Satan will someday use your own Bible to light his fire under you.
By labeling any argument against homosexuality as "propaganda" then you are automatically shutting down any open discussions or demonstrating a willingness to fairly examine the arguments against homosexuality.
False. Because I can not "fairly examine" what you have not presented.
It is also DOUBLE false because what poor arguments you HAVE presented I have addressed and examined AT LENGTH. You have simply chosen to ignore multiple posts I have made in this thread entirely, just so you can now pretend I never made them and have not been evaluating the arguments.
To repeat: I have evaluated the arguments you have presented at length, including your misrepresentation and cherry picking of statistics, and you have merely ignored those replies from me. Repeatedly.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Nothing more here than chest puffing and demonstrating more biased.
In other words you can not rebut what I have claimed so you dismiss it with a snide side swipe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
So anyone who believes in the Bible and doesn't support homosexuality is incapable of "thinking"?
If you say so. But that bears no resemblance WHATSOEVER to what I actually said. So I suspect you have merely returned to your traditional MO of pretending I have said things I never actually did.
If you want to at any point honestly read what I wrote, instead of what you imagine, then I would urge you to start by learning the difference between being incapable of doing something, and not actually engaging in doing that something. My comment referred to the latter in reality. It refers to the former entirely in your imagination and misrepresentation of me.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
There are quite a few rational arguments.
Great! Then any time you actually want to present one, that would be nice. The problem is you have demonstrated such extreme bias that you would never give them to us at all.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
For example, when I presented you clear simple STDS facts from the CDC, you immediately went to work to try and find some way and distort the truth.
Nice little historical revisionism you have just engaged in there. But the actual reality, available to anyone who scrolls back in the thread to see it for themselves, was that I highlighted the distortion of the truth and reality that YOU were engaged in. They will find posts like this and this and this and this and this and this. And one of which, let alone all together, simply belie the tactic you have of ignoring my posts for several days, then pretending I never actually made them and have refused to consider or engage with your views. A lie you keep telling about me but have never managed to make stick in even the smallest fashion.
I am happy to repeat them.
For example you were using statistics to make comments on homosexuality as a whole, but the statistics you were using to do so were based solely on a cherry picked sub set of homosexuality. You basically massage the statistics by cutting out the subsets that do not fit with the agenda you present. So I just "torpedoed" your no rational argument sermon.
Another example is that you attempt to make homosexuality and anal sex synonymous and then you ONLY present figures on anal sex in the homosexual community. Cherry picking really is your statistics MO of choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Well something that causes a big increase in the spread of STDs puts a burden onto the entire health care system.
Then take your issue up with things that actually do cause this. Homosexuality is not one of them.
Poor sex education is one. Improvement of that will reduce STDs.
Costs and access to contraception and safe sex methods are another. There are places where Condoms are taxed when I do not believe they should be. They are also age restricted in other places, which again I do not believe they should be.
Promiscuity is another one, which you appear to want to pretend is synonymous with homosexuality when it is not.
Teaching the sinful use of safe sex methods, as many religions alas do, is also a harm.
So the list of issues that actually do negatively impact our STD transmissions are endless. So why you choose to focus on the one least likely to achieve anything can only be an expression of your extreme anti homosexual biases.
These fundamentalists talking about homosexuality at length is very much like broscience. They don't know what they are talking about. They don't even know something so basic as the definition of sexual orientation.
Well at least you are now admitting to categorizing sin --- with numbers perhaps? Homosexuality is a ten where gluttony is only a five? And therefore gluttony doesn't deserve to have sermons preached about it?
I'm only going by what the Bible says. A book that you seem to disregard. You know, Jesus never say a word against gluttony. Going by your logic, that means He approves of gluttony and it's not a sin, right? Same argument you use for homosexuality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Would you like to provide us with factual proof that the gay "agenda" has forced any "religious organization to accept them? Sorry, but a "for profit" business is not a religious organization. In the United States of America if you hold yourself out as a public business you don't have a right to discriminate against anyone. Over the decades varying groups have always wanted the right to treat some folks as dirt. Tough it has to frequently taken far too long, either the states through constitutional amendments or the Supreme Court through judgments has stated to those groups that it isn't going to happen.
Well here ya go:
Quote:
Bowdoin College in Maine has just disenfranchised its Christian Fellowship, a campus presence of more than 40 years, denying recognition to the group, disabling key cards of longtime volunteer advisers, and forbidding use of campus space and even bulletin boards by the group. Responding to pressure from gay students, the college insists that the Christian group allow candidacy of gay leaders. The group says it will gladly allow gay members but not leaders, because leaders must uphold the group’s religious doctrine. In effect, Bowdoin is insisting that the Christian group either get off campus or accept a system under which the beliefs of the group could be distorted or overthrown by non-believers
You're living in the wrong country. There is a possibility that you could raise travel money from some of us who post on CD.
Your agenda, and the agenda of all religious gay bashers is quite clear. You wish to isolate people who are homosexual or keep them in the closet so your devil created sensibilities aren't offended. You would fit in well in several middle eastern countries. Just don't mention Jesus. When you mention Him here it is more like Mohammed anyway.
Isolating people is evil.
No, labeling and grouping people is evil, and that's exactly what you do to Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin. I believe in the individuality and value of people as human beings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Theologian and pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was hanged by the Nazis just a couple of weeks before the end of the war once told his students in the underground resistance seminary, "Evil demands to have a man by himself. It withdraws him from the community. The more isolated a person is, the more destructive the power of evil will be over him, the more disastrous his isolation----Evil shuns the light. In the darkness of the unexpressed it poisons the whole being of a person. This can happen even in the midst of a pious community."
By isolating homosexuals, by filling them with fear to be who they are, by dehumanizing them, by demanding to have a "right" to refuse them services offered by businesses, by refusing them the right to marry and receive health care from their spouse's insurance, by remaining silent when they are beaten or killed, by making their so-called sin greater than your own, you have negated the cross of Christ and sold out to the Evil One. More than one homosexual on this very thread has spoken of how they have been driven away from church by the drivel espoused by fundamentalists. For all of this, there is a millstone about your neck. And guess what, your beliefs, as I've shown before, is driving people from evangelical churches! At least there is that bit of good from these sick beliefs.
Lots of baseless assertions here, but I understand your need to villianize us to appear superior. Let me shatter your portrait. I personally believe gay people should have access to all the services, rights, and legal benefits that other people have. But I don't believe they have the right to have access to every single thing or organization. Having a wedding cake made is not a civil right. It's a luxury, but your side would rather see a Christian business burn to the ground and the owners struggle financially so the gay couple can have their way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
The handwriting is on your wall. Your best and perhaps only hope is to father a gay child. Even Dick Cheney, opposed to every other kind of social issue, knew and knows that homosexuals are people--not agendas. And the only reason he arrived at that viewpoint was because he has a lesbian daughter.
If you don't someday have a gay child, I fear Satan will someday use your own Bible to light his fire under you.
More judging from someone who claims judging is wrong.
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