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By the way, do YOU suggest homosexuals should be put to death? And, if not, why not? It's certainly a part of the same verse of scripture stating that homosexuals are an abomination. If you are going to be "literal" with scripture, then promote ALL of it.
The problem with this argument is that the verses talking about putting homosexuals to death or that they are abominations are part of the Old Testament Law that Jesus' death freed us from. Those laws are not in effect under what we could call New Testament Law. Jesus died to take upon all of the worlds sin and freed us from God's law that is impossible to live up to fully. Paul talks about this quite a bit in the New Testament, which for some reason seems to get looked over often in favor of bizarre OT rituals and laws that serve no purpose after Christ's death.
Two such verses that comes to mind are from 1 Corinthians:
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9–10)
But Paul also reassures offenders of these sins that there is redemption for those who accept Christ:
"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11)
To me, this says that salvation is offered to all who accept the free gift, but one cannot be washed of their sins if they continually defy God by rejecting this message. They've never truly accepted salvation if they choose to live in habitual sin and resist the transformative power of the Holy Spirit.
A few verses later, he says:
"...The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joinedto a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Flee from sexual immorality.Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
My interpretation of this is that once we accept Christ and take on the Holy Spirit within us, we are to glorify God with our bodies by using them in a way that is pure and righteous. How can we please God by continuing to live a sinful lifestyle and abuse our bodies by submitting them to sexual sin? I believe that by the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to resist our sinful urges, including homosexual thoughts, feelings, and desires, and live according to God's will.
Sounds like a very selfish man. God gave him healthy beautiful children and a loving supportive wife, but he was willing to throw all that way for the lusts of the flesh.
Can you biblically dispute why it is OK to keep slaves? Equality is unimportant in the Bible, I'd suggest you get used to how we treat people in the modern world. Equal treatment of people under the law, is a much kinder and more loving approach than your Bible can ever teach.
Question, if Jesus came to you today and said, "Go, and sin no more," would you/could you stop sinning?
Sir/Madam, quit trying to play the slave card. It was not a sin to own slaves in ancient Israel and it will not be in the future when Israel is regathered. King David will be ruling under Christ over Israel and the 12 apostles will each be ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel. Christ and the resurrected saints will transform this world in to a utopian Garden of Eden and no servant will be mistreated.
It is our liberal world that is obsessed over slavery and is loaded down with guilt but the Bible allows it so please get over it.
Read Isaiah 14 if you doubt what I am saying:
Isaiah 14:1-3
1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
Even two of the Ten Commandments which were written with the very finger of God, shows that God acknowledges a man's right to own servants. Read it. This is the most holy document that has ever existed on the planet. It was so holy it was placed inside the ark of God and here we see that God Himself acknowledges a man's right to own servants and He does not condemn that as being a sin.
FOURTH COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
TENTH COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:8-11
17, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
So put your slave card away and stick to the topic of homosexuality.
The problem with this argument is that the verses talking about putting homosexuals to death or that they are abominations are part of the Old Testament Law that Jesus' death freed us from. Those laws are not in effect under what we could call New Testament Law. Jesus died to take upon all of the worlds sin and freed us from God's law that is impossible to live up to fully. Paul talks about this quite a bit in the New Testament, which for some reason seems to get looked over often in favor of bizarre OT rituals and laws that serve no purpose after Christ's death.
Two such verses that comes to mind are from 1 Corinthians:
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9–10)
But Paul also reassures offenders of these sins that there is redemption for those who accept Christ:
"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11)
To me, this says that salvation is offered to all who accept the free gift, but one cannot be washed of their sins if they continually defy God by rejecting this message. They've never truly accepted salvation if they choose to live in habitual sin and resist the transformative power of the Holy Spirit.
A few verses later, he says:
"...The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joinedto a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
My interpretation of this is that once we accept Christ and take on the Holy Spirit within us, we are to glorify God with our bodies by using them in a way that is pure and righteous. How can we please God by continuing to live a sinful lifestyle and abuse our bodies by submitting them to sexual sin? I believe that by the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to resist our sinful urges, including homosexual thoughts, feelings, and desires, and live according to God's will.
Well Paul was dead wrong in the line I highlighted. Completely, unalterably wrong! The OT has more verses about the sin of obesity than it does about homosexuality. Do you consider obesity to be a sin "outside" the body?" No, and you don't preach about it in your church either because a quarter to a half of all of them are overweight or even obese.
I'm obese, despite having lost fifty pounds and exercising five times a week by walking two miles and lifting weights. I was obese when I stood in the pulpits of three score churches as a lay pastor. I was obese as the Director of financial aid/student recruitment at a Southern Baptist College. I was obese when I was licensed to preach by the Southern Baptist Church. I was obese as a student at a Southern Baptist college.
How many sermons on obesity did I hear? None. Ever. Anywhere. How many have you heard?
And that is the point. We have changed our views on many, many things in both the Old and New Testament without changing a view of homosexuality.
Quote:
We Christians are good at a lot of things. Helping others. Dressing up on Sunday. Quoting scripture. Pot luck meals. Taking care of church members. Weddings. Funerals. Worship. But perhaps the thing at which we are the most persistently exceptional is misinterpreting the Bible then running amuck in the world because of it. Honestly, mad skills. And history backs me up on this one.
We have used the Bible to support, promote and act upon some pretty un-Christian things: slavery, holocaust, segregation, subjugation of women, apartheid, the Spanish Inquisition (which, no one ever expects), domestic violence, all sorts of exploitation and the list could go on and on.
The reality is that the Bible is not a sex manual. I know, shocker. Right? Actually, it's a good thing (depending on your particular level of sexual prudishness – personally, compared to the Bible, mine is pretty high). You see, the Bible not only promotes marriage between a man and a woman, but it insist that that marriage be within the same faith.Not only should a wife be subordinate (Ephesians 5:22), but she should also prove her virginity... lest she be stoned (Deuteronomy 22:20-21). Oh, and the whole thing would probably be much better if it were arranged (Genesis 24:37-38). And that's just the warm up act.
According to the Bible, if a woman's husband dies and she hasn't had a son, she must marry his brother and have intercourse with him until she has a son (Mark 12:18-27). Sometimes, biblically wives are good, but concubines are better. Many of the “men of God” were not only married, but at least three of them had more than one concubine (Abraham, Caleb, Solomon) and they remained “men of God.” But like I said, “biblically wives are good” and there's no such thing as too much of a good thing. Right? So, why not have may wives? God frequently blessed polygamists (Esau, Jacob, Gideon, David, Solomon, Belshazzar).
As far as sexuality and the Bible's perspective on woman as property and as slaves... well, as you can imagine, it does not get any better.
The point is this: most of us have matured enough theologically to recognize that we need to contextualize the writings of the Bible, and because of it we have moved passed using these examples as the end-all-be-all on acceptable practices of sexuality. However, somehow, we have not managed to apply the very same understanding to the Bible verses that have become known as the “clobber verses” in the Bible. “Clobber" because they are the verses most used to clobber people who are gay or who support gay rights.
That is really interesting when you consider that, of all the topics I just mentioned, sexual orientation is the only one that is not a choice. Polygamy, concubines, marrying your brother's widow? All choices, and we have decided to “get over” the biblical directives for them. Sexual orientation? Not a choice. (There are those who still argue otherwise, but the science is clear, so I'm not even having that discussion). So many Christians just aren't able to get past that one. Equally interesting to consider: it is actually more of a choice to judge and marginalize people over being homosexual, or, bi-sexual, or *****; than it is a choice to be homosexual, or, bi-sexual, or *****. Yet we judge them and not ourselves.
Sir/Madam, quit trying to play the slave card. It was not a sin to own slaves in ancient Israel and it will not be in the future when Israel is regathered. King David will be ruling under Christ over Israel and the 12 apostles will each be ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel. Christ and the resurrected saints will transform this world in to a utopian Garden of Eden and no servant will be mistreated.
It is our liberal world that is obsessed over slavery and is loaded down with guilt but the Bible allows it so please get over it.
...snip...
Your cloak of Christian righteousness is a tattered rag.
All with eyes unblinkered by dogma can see the rot that lies inside.
On your last day, to your horror and shame, you will see it too. And you will be unable to look away.
Sir/Madam, quit trying to play the slave card. It was not a sin to own slaves in ancient Israel and it will not be in the future when Israel is regathered.
tthttf
And there you go, cobalt1959, from the mouth of that fine bible quoting Christian who is looking forward to having his own slaves in the millennium.
Sounds like a very selfish man. God gave him healthy beautiful children and a loving supportive wife, but he was willing to throw all that way for the lusts of the flesh.
You have condemned yourself for what is in your heart, for out of the heart proceeds every evil that arises in man.
His wife didn't condemn him. I have previously quoted from the forward to Mel's book--which she penned--calling him a wonderful Christian. They parted amicably and still have family gatherings. That's being a Christian. Your interference and judgment on their lives is anathema to God---and you will pay for it.
Well Paul was dead wrong in the line I highlighted. Completely, unalterably wrong! The OT has more verses about the sin of obesity than it does about homosexuality. Do you consider obesity to be a sin "outside" the body?" No, and you don't preach about it in your church either because a quarter to a half of all of them are overweight or even obese.
I'm obese, despite having lost fifty pounds and exercising five times a week by walking two miles and lifting weights. I was obese when I stood in the pulpits of three score churches as a lay pastor. I was obese as the Director of financial aid/student recruitment at a Southern Baptist College. I was obese when I was licensed to preach by the Southern Baptist Church. I was obese as a student at a Southern Baptist college.
How many sermons on obesity did I hear? None. Ever. Anywhere. How many have you heard?
And that is the point. We have changed our views on many, many things in both the Old and New Testament without changing a view of homosexuality.
So why do you think of some of the Bible as literal--and make excuses to explain away other parts?
Sorry, I'm for some reason not seeing which portion you highlighted. It may be a browser issue or I'm just not observant enough :P
Anyway, for the rest of what you said and quoted, I stand by what I stated before. Those commands or rules, or whatever you'd like to call them are no longer valid to a believer saved by the grace of Christ's death. You may not agree with Paul, but I believe what he says when he tells us, "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (Romans 6:14)
These other portions in Romans 6 also really stand out to me. I think Paul makes a good argument for accepting grace and forgoing our past sins.
"1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."
...
"12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."
I wonder also, how can you take verses from the OT and references to the laws (your quote from Mark is a good example) so literally and seriously, but then just brush aside new truths in the New Testament? This always confuses me. I agree that obesity is a silly concern, but like you said, it is a sin of the body. Treating your body with disrespect in this way is offensive to God, but just because it's not talked about as much or not highlighted as much in sermons doesn't mean it's any less important.
"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." Galatians 5:16
The fact that modern views on what is and isn't considered OK in society have changed also doesn't justify them. God's opinion is eternal. God's grace and offer of redemption are free and eternal until God deems them unnecessary for salvation (if and when, it's up to God!).
I also disagree with the opinion that homosexuality is an inborn characteristic, but that opinion is beside the point. I believe that God is powerful enough to allow us to resist sin if we accept the Holy Spirit's influence in our lives. God can accomplish all things, so why give homosexuality, or any other sin power over him? We are no longer slaves to sin if we are in Christ Jesus.
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1
Sir/Madam, quit trying to play the slave card. It was not a sin to own slaves in ancient Israel and it will not be in the future when Israel is regathered. King David will be ruling under Christ over Israel and the 12 apostles will each be ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel. Christ and the resurrected saints will transform this world in to a utopian Garden of Eden and no servant will be mistreated.
It is our liberal world that is obsessed over slavery and is loaded down with guilt but the Bible allows it so please get over it.
There it is! When complaining about liberals and their views on the LGBT community just isn't enough..... Complain about the liberals and their views on slavery. Another fascinating insight into the fundamentalist mind-set.
Plan on owning any slaves?
Last edited by DewDropInn; 12-15-2014 at 12:19 PM..
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