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I would rather have words fail me, than a spirit of love and acceptance toward oppressed and demeaned people.
You've never read a word Mel White has written, unless it was one of the books for Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or Billy Graham, all who were impressed enough with his spirituality to hire him as a ghost writer.
And your judgment of him as a liar is based on no knowledge whatsoever, just like your scriptural assessments are made with no deep and meaningful study. Like the other fundamentalists on this thread it is all Sunday School simplicity, not scholarly, nor thoughtful, and without weighing every written word against the life and words of Jesus.
How sad. I was raised believing every evil thing you believe. After serving in the marine corps in Viet Nam, I went to a Southern Baptist College and studied Bible falling three hours short of a double minor. Scholastic study was still available back then, before the politicians hijacked the denomination and drove anyone without a plenary view of scripture from the colleges. The right wing leaders of religion and politics prefer folks like you who are prone to look at others as evil sinners so you won't try to look too hard at them and their agenda.
It's okay, Adolf Hitler used the exact same methods against both Jews and gays. Your leaders learned well.
Just because someone has a long history of Christianity and everyone is impressed by the spiritually of one person does not mean they truly live Christian lives. I used to go to a church where one of the preachers there was so powerful I saw so many people came to Christ because of him, did not fully live with integrity and was involved in some scandal and it hit the news and news papers around my country and as a result he lost his position in the church. Yet even what happened I still have respect of him even though he admitted his sins on national television.
I also know someone that has not been a Christian for that long and his testimony and the way he is living his life as a Christian so much impressed me and everyone within my church group, I consider him the best type of Christian out there.
Having recently watched a federal judge overthrow the will of the people in my state who voted to ban same-sex marriage I feel we are in perilous times.
A single act of homosexuality is considered an abomination in God's Word the Bible. Therefore marriage between two homosexuals is off the moral scale as far as abominations go. I think we all need to wake up before our nation is destroyed for this and all the rest of our horrible sins.
There is NO double standard with God.
Here is a scripture from the both King James Version and the Easy-to-Read Version of the Bible:
Leviticus 20:13
KJV:
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
ERV:
“If a man has sexual relations with another man as with a woman, they have committed a terrible sin. They must be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.
The US Government is promoting sin and eventually we are all going to have to pay a heavy price.
Right you are. And every time I post in opposition to these self righteous haters of the way Jesus taught us to live, I think of that poor boy committing suicide because his parents listened to that ugly crap coming from the pulpits of America. I weep inside for his parents who now blame themselves for listening to the garbage that God has no place for individuals He made.
Not one of the fundamentalist posters here sees their own responsibility in the death of that child or scores of others. But they are enablers of hate crimes. They are the cause of depression, hiding in the closet, beatings, and even promiscuity among gays who are only now being given the chance to marry.
But on the day of judgment Jesus will be telling them that it would have been better that a millstone had been tied around their necks and that they had been tossed into the sea than that they had encouraged hate against anyone.
Then they will be crying, "Lord, Lord, when did we do this?"
Sir, you are condemning those who stand for God against a sin clearly defined so in God's Word. You are accusing us of taking part in murder simply because we are upholding the standards clearly written down for all to see in God's Word. You repeatedly turn the discussion into your own personal witch hunt against anyone who doesn't condone this pet sin of yours.
The bounds of proper discussion does not allow the brutal and direct facts to be openly displayed for all to see because of the nature of this sin and how it really affects others because we are confined to a religious topic and must stay on that theme.
God does not allow sin nor does He ever ever condone sin. There was almost a whole tribe of Israel wiped out because they supported/defended a city that engaged in sexual misconduct.
I am speaking out against this sin the best I can! I am not a murderer but one who is trying to defend the land from being defiled any more than it already has which God in His Word says that sins like adultery, this sins and others cause (please read Leviticus 18 again).
From the Scriptures you can't justify your position so you turn on us and try to put us on the level of murderers to make your position in desperation. If that's not attacking a fellow forum poster then what is?
If people choose to be gay, my son's friend David chose when he was about two. Despite his parents enrolling him in hockey and karate, David much preferred tea parties and playing house. The whole neighbourhood knew he was gay from early childhood.
The thought that folks sit and ponder one day whether or not they're straight or gay is just silly. We all know from an early age where our attractions lie. If anyone agonizes over it, it's because much of society still frowns upon homosexuality and they're frightened to come out. Or, they're bi and wish they leaned one way or t'other.
It's all good -- except for the fundamentalist fussbudgets.
I am gay and never was really into sports when I was a kid, except for the rare occurances. I always thought I was different yet all time I was loved by God. I was even harassed when I was younger because people thought I was gay. Yet it appeared for me the biggest homophobia I got was not even true Christians as they were doing drugs, getting drunk, etc. Several of them wanted to bash me up due to that. Yet even so we are all sinners and have been born that way. Yet God is the ultimate judge of all of us. I admit coming out as gay was very liberating and that was 10 years ago. Yet the more and more I got into the gay lifestyle and I had plenty of gay friends, I saw something missing. That missing thing was Jesus Christ. When I did truly turn to Jesus and confessed all my sins there was a transformation in me.
Now I choose to live the life where Jesus has meant for me. We are all have been sinners so I cannot really judge anyone. I do not hate anyone as hating people is wrong. God is the ultimate judge of all of us. Every Christian has their own issues and struggles. Yet of course it has always been the case for the first Christians. Even the first Church had former practising homosexuals.
I am gay and never was really into sports when I was a kid, except for the rare occurances. I always thought I was different yet all time I was loved by God. I was even harassed when I was younger because people thought I was gay. Yet it appeared for me the biggest homophobia I got was not even true Christians as they were doing drugs, getting drunk, etc. Several of them wanted to bash me up due to that. Yet even so we are all sinners and have been born that way. Yet God is the ultimate judge of all of us. I admit coming out as gay was very liberating and that was 10 years ago. Yet the more and more I got into the gay lifestyle and I had plenty of gay friends, I saw something missing. That missing thing was Jesus Christ. When I did truly turn to Jesus and confessed all my sins there was a transformation in me.
Now I choose to live the life where Jesus has meant for me. We are all have been sinners so I cannot really judge anyone. I do not hate anyone as hating people is wrong. God is the ultimate judge of all of us. Every Christian has their own issues and struggles. Yet of course it has always been the case for the first Christians. Even the first Church had former practising homosexuals.
And Mel White, who went through 25 years of struggling with who he is, finally came out as well, despite prayers, tears, all sorts of self-imposed physical and mental torture to change him. He couldn't. And he eventually accepted himself.
He was a pastor, the father of two children, a wife so wonderful she wrote the forward to his autobiography even though they are now divorced, and there are pictures of family gatherings with Mel, Lyla, his two children, Michael and Errin---and Mel's current partner, Gary. Mel remains a pastor of the largest gay church in the world, located in Dallas, Texas, with over 1200 members.
You've come to a position that you believe you must be celibate to honor God. Some could not reach that position. Good for you. There are heterosexuals that voluntarily choose to be celibate as well in order to honor God.
But if you are celibate because you believe what the CHURCH has told you, I feel very sorry for you. If you do it to honor God, then that is commendable. But homosexuality cannot possibly be a sin if God created virtually every animal mankind has found including fruit flies to have a population of about 2-4% homosexual behavior. A fruit fly didn't "choose" to sin. If it was natural to be born heterosexual, why would nearly brainless creatures exhibit this as a "chosen" behavior? Perhaps it was God's way of showing people with brains that there would be a few "special" people in the world, just like there are Down's Syndrome children that no one accuses of "choosing" how they are. The difference is that many, many parents of Down's Syndrome children love and accept them for who they are. It's not as true for homosexuals.
I don't think you were created anyway but the way you are supposed to be so that if you live your life fully and honestly and responsibly, with your faith in God and ESPECIALLY your attitude toward refraining from judging others because of their sin--that you can give glory to God whether you choose to be celibate or choose to find one loving partner with whom to form an unbreakable covenant relationship.
Mel's leaving his wife, a terrible sin imo, was a result of trying to live up to the expectations of evangelicals who were telling how he had to live his life and who he had to love. Telling him to deny how God had made him. And the interesting thing is that everyone who told him that, just like the ones "explaining" how they know God wants to burn homosexuals in hell say it through lips that are as sinful as anyone else's. I agree wholeheartedly with your line " Every Christian has their own issues and struggles." It's just that some people who claim Christianity would rather point fingers at other people's struggles than face their own issues.
Ultimately the road they are on--no matter whether they are way down the path like tthttf or have only taken a few short steps like jj---is the road that ends with the Westboro Baptist church and their banners of "God Hates ****!" Some of them genuinely may not see themselves there.
But here is the critical question. If condemning homosexuality is such a good thing, why aren't homosexuals rushing to "reparative" therapy, which has been reputed by its very founder? Why, if they have such a great message of God, are more and more young people rejecting evangelical churches--and those young people are claiming it is the judgmental attitude of the churches and their members which is doing it? The Barma Group, a Christian statistical group, states that even with young people (under age 30) who stay in the church, some 20% say the church is wrong in its stance regarding homosexuals. And ones leaving the church say it isn't relevant either.
The church gets a big fat F because it doesn't preach Jesus, its preaching "we're better than those sinners out there. All of them are evil, they are ruining our nation and bringing us to destruction." The fact is, it is the church itself (as a whole, not all) that is bringing the nation to destruction. Church views on abortion and homosexuality, things that were NEVER preached in the sixties--at least at no service I attended, and I had no Christian friends ever report such a message. It was never mentioned on my Christian campus even in the early seventies.
The church has lost it's calling and become the Church of Laodicea in the Bible. It believes people can be won to Christ by holding a ticket to heaven in one hand and clobbering people with the Bible in the other. No wonder people are leaving---there is nothing attractive about the vast majority of evangelical churches today.
We were all designed to be heterosexuals, mentally, spiritually and physically so orientation isn't a factor.
You have not shown that we were designed AT ALL. But even with that gross failing, you certainly have not shown that any given individual, let alone "all", were designed specifically to be heterosexual. And genetic, neurological, hormonal and other evidences strongly do suggest a lack of such a design plan in homosexuals.
So you appear to simply be making stuff up. Again. You must really be scrapping the bottom of the barrel to now resort to just making baseless suggestions. Are you just simply incapable of having a discussion without making it all up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The fact that I rarely see atheists say anything positive about the Bible only proves the verse even more.
That is mainly because you are one of those people who sees what they want to see. And wantonly ignores what does not fit. For example the way you want to see that all atheists here do not engage with the subject and just get personal. So what you do is contrive to simply ignore the posts that are on topic entirely, skip them, and do not reply to them. And only read, reply to and acknowledge the ones that fit your preconception of atheist posts.
Similarly you do the same here. You simply ignore what atheists have said about the bible. Both internationally and on this very forum. There have been many threads on the subject in the atheist sections of forums like this. And many atheists, myself included, line up to laud praise on the Bible for its place in literature, history, and the annals or human moral philosophy.
Our sole critique of it tends to simply be that there is a lack of ANY reasoning, much much less so from you, to suggest the events described within it ever actually happened. That really is it.
But as per your usual MO you simply ignore all these people and posts, cherry pick the ones that fit the straw man of atheist you wish to construct, and then run with it. And other than yourself, I am baffled as to who you may think you are convincing with this or what credibility it leaves you with.
What the bible certainly does not contain, to go back on topic, is any arguments, data or reasoning to suggest there is actually anything wrong morally or ethically with homosexuality, or performance of homosexual acts. And you have not shown a single line or verse anywhere on the thread that suggests this to be the case. Just the asserted opinion of the supposed author. An opinion which is as baseless and groundless and lacking in any substance as your own. If this god of yours truely is a rational god, then surely there must actually be some valid moral and ethical arguments to be made to support what therefore must be it's rational position on the matter. Yet we have not seen an iota of this from you.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
And also remember who the accuser is.. THE ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN
I would rather have words fail me, than a spirit of love and acceptance toward oppressed and demeaned people.
You've never read a word Mel White has written, unless it was one of the books for Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or Billy Graham, all who were impressed enough with his spirituality to hire him as a ghost writer.
And your judgment of him as a liar is based on no knowledge whatsoever, just like your scriptural assessments are made with no deep and meaningful study. Like the other fundamentalists on this thread it is all Sunday School simplicity, not scholarly, nor thoughtful, and without weighing every written word against the life and words of Jesus.
How sad. I was raised believing every evil thing you believe. After serving in the marine corps in Viet Nam, I went to a Southern Baptist College and studied Bible falling three hours short of a double minor. Scholastic study was still available back then, before the politicians hijacked the denomination and drove anyone without a plenary view of scripture from the colleges. The right wing leaders of religion and politics prefer folks like you who are prone to look at others as evil sinners so you won't try to look too hard at them and their agenda.
It's okay, Adolf Hitler used the exact same methods against both Jews and gays. Your leaders learned well.
I knew the "Hitler" thing would come out. People love to use his name to support their stand against God and for sin. Thanks!
Mel remains a pastor of the largest gay church in the world, located in Dallas, Texas, with over 1200 members.
Minor correction here, I know of the church you are speaking of and Mel is no longer associated with them. He has retired from ministry and now resides in Southern California. In addition the church is no longer associated with UFMCC, as it was when Mel was Dean, and is now part of the United Church of Christ.
As an aside, I have met Mel more than once, he is just as sincere and charming in real life as he appears in his book.
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